Mad, bored and disappointed with Season 8

[deathisyourgift]

I'm only going to make two quick points, because there is a lot being discussed here, and my opinions for the majority of the topics have already been stated.

1. Buffy THE SHOW vs. Buffy THE COMIC

Here's the thing, if you've never read comics before, and never known the long wait between issues, I can see how waiting a month to read a slow-moving 20 page comic can be irritating when you're used to seeing an hour long show once a week. Understandable. But to say that nothing has happened in the past 24 issues? Absurd. I hear your complaints, I have felt them too, but I'm not mad about it really. A lot has happened, it just doesn't feel like it because we have to wait for each issue. Dawn is a friggin' centaur, Xander is command central and has already had another love interest killed, Willow is doing something crazy with a snake woman, future-dark Willow tried to kill Buffy, Buffy went into the future, and had sex with a woman, who is another slayer, Riley is aligned with Twilight, and Faith and Giles are doing a lot of stuff on their own (which I can't wait to hear more of). That's a lot of plottage! Things are moving slowly for a reason, and that's cool. That's how comics work. Maybe if you can't take the wait, you could just not read the individual issues and wait until the TPB's are all out and read them all at once? Or maybe just wait for the TPB's, then the story will be a bit concentrated and seem to move more quickly? I personally like to re-read an arc once the final issue has come out, usually after I read the final issue of said arc. I think it helps put things all together. Either way, I'd say for those of you who are thinking of giving up on the comic Season 8: Please stick with it. This is a very decent comic, with characters who most of us have grown to cherish, and I think it's worth the wait.


2. Satsu and Kennedy: Who Cares?

I really do not like Kennedy as a character, in the show or in the comics so far (though I must say that I find her tolerable in comic form, I think I just had a problem with Iyari Limon), and to be perfectly honest, I don't really agree with the idea to have Buffy and Satsu as a couple. Those two things said: I enjoyed The Swell, very much. In S7, Kennedy was set up as perhaps the most capable of the potentials. In other words, Kennedy would probably be the next Chosen One..well without the Slayer-ness whammy Will used the scythe for. Anyways, Kennedy would definitely be checking up on Satsu in Japan, as one of the more trusted Slayerettes. Not to mention, she's in a relationship with one of the core three, Willow, who is also the most powerful person in the Slayer army (and the world??). I do not find it hard to believe that Kennedy would run the inspection on Satsu's set up. As for Satsu, I think that she does love Buffy, as Buffy is a very attractive woman in many ways. I do not think that Buffy loves Satsu in the same way though, and that their short-lived sexual relationship was probably an experiment or lusting from Buffy's p.o.v. I think the two of them liked each other, and it is believable for Buffy to try new things, as she has always been a risk-taker when it comes to relationships (Angel, Parker, Spike..all pretty risky, but Buffy went for them anyways). Therefore, I think it is great that Kennedy took the time to help Satsu figure things out about how she feels and how to move on. I see it as a "big-sis/colleague" sort of relationship between the two of them, and who knows, maybe with Willow and the confusing Saga Vasuki thing, Kennedy will go visit Satsu more often and they can hook up. I don't know, but I enjoyed the plot of those two together much more than their separate plots with the other scoobies.


That was supposed to be quick..oops

[Mathieu]

This is so crazy. I know this is TOTALLY off topic but I've been criticizing the whole Satsu/Buffy thing for a long time now, not that I was against it but the whole storyline seemed fake to me, and now I'm realizing that since last week I'm in a complete Buffy/Satsu situation myself!!

Except that my position is a mix of being in Buffy's shoes and Satsu's shoes... I was the one experimenting with the same sex for the first time and I'm the one who now has the big crush but he's not being called back. It really sucks by the way.

Ok, I'm sorry that's really off-topic and belongs to another thread but I was reading what deathisyourgift just said and I was suddenly seeing the Buffy/Satsu thing from a different perspective... this is so weird actually, I guess it was meant to be.

I'm being punished.

[wenxina]

Feb 24, 2009 20:33:32 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

I'm being punished.

Karma is a bitca.

[Joe]

Feb 24, 2009 20:33:32 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

This is so crazy. I know this is TOTALLY off topic but I've been criticizing the whole Satsu/Buffy thing for a long time now, not that I was against it but the whole storyline seemed fake to me, and now I'm realizing that since last week I'm in a complete Buffy/Satsu situation myself!!

You keep saying that Buffy/Satsu storyline seems fake to you. How is this? I don't see anything fake about it.

[Mathieu]

By fake, I mean that it seemed to me that this relationship came out of nowhere, it didn't feel natural. I might have to go back to the first arc and read it again but correct me if I'm wrong, the only thing we know is that Satsu gave Buffy a true love kiss to get her out of coma and then that was it, everybody was like "wow, Satsu is in love with Buffy!!!" (well we didn't find out right away though). But we didn't really see how she actually fell for Buffy over time, I feel like the whole character development was lacking here. But again, I guess there's no time for this in the comic format.

[henzINNIT]

People missing the highschool dynamic in a teen show that went on for 7 years is inevitable unfortunately.
I think growing up isn't looked on too favourably because it coincided with a decline in writing, which is an unfair link. 5 was great. Later seasons were lazy. Season 7 in particular seemed rushed and under-baked. Joss has been given a long long time to plan Season 8, so he'll have no excuses if it doesn't wrap up well, but it's not right for people to throw out S8 for anything to do with the arcs and lack of action when it's only half way done.

[zacho]

Ok I should have expected a response like this so let me be a bit clearer.
I never said I didn't like Buffy after HS, I personally loved 5 and while 4 and 6 wern't my favorite they were still really good. Season 7 had awesome potential IMO until episode 8 and then it went downhill. I just do not enjoy the comics one bit...except for the HS one which is how my nostalgia kicked in. I don't think I'm being unrealistic in what I like. While I did love the high school years, I'd also love to see Buffy continue to grow up after HS...I just don't like the direction of the comic.

[Mathieu]

Who didn't feel nostalgia kick in with the High School issue, I mean seriously??? I think I'm gonna create a poll one these days ;-)

[Enisy]

I didn't. I thought it was campy, vapid, lacking in any sort of insight us long-time fans were expecting, and a waste of precious time/space in a medium that can't afford it.

[henzINNIT]

Feb 25, 2009 11:32:36 GMT -5 zacho said:

Ok I should have expected a response like this so let me be a bit clearer.
I never said I didn't like Buffy after HS, I personally loved 5 and while 4 and 6 wern't my favorite they were still really good. Season 7 had awesome potential IMO until episode 8 and then it went downhill. I just do not enjoy the comics one bit...except for the HS one which is how my nostalgia kicked in. I don't think I'm being unrealistic in what I like. While I did love the high school years, I'd also love to see Buffy continue to grow up after HS...I just don't like the direction of the comic.

No that's totally fair. I agree that season 7 started to waste its potential around episode 8 also.

[wenxina]

Feb 25, 2009 21:10:54 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

Who didn't feel nostalgia kick in with the High School issue, I mean seriously??? I think I'm gonna create a poll one these days ;-)

Honestly, no. It kinda reeked of fanservice, and the payoff was tiny; i.e. the bit about Buffy learning from Angel that changing the future is a dangerous thing. I mean, that explains the motive behind her silence so far, but for the most part, I was anxious to get back on with the story instead of being sidelined.
So no... no nostalgia for me. Nostalgia I get when I pull out the DVDs and blow off the dust from the jacket.

[Paul]

Feb 26, 2009 11:13:49 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Feb 25, 2009 21:10:54 GMT -5 Mathieu said:

Who didn't feel nostalgia kick in with the High School issue, I mean seriously??? I think I'm gonna create a poll one these days ;-)

Honestly, no. It kinda reeked of fanservice, and the payoff was tiny; i.e. the bit about Buffy learning from Angel that changing the future is a dangerous thing. I mean, that explains the motive behind her silence so far, but for the most part, I was anxious to get back on with the story instead of being sidelined.
So no... no nostalgia for me. Nostalgia I get when I pull out the DVDs and blow off the dust from the jacket.

Nothing wrong with a bit of fanservice so long as it's kept in moderation! "After These Messages" was utterly harmless, it was a beautifully drawn love letter to the series' past, as well a way of paying respect to the could-have-been animated series. I admit that it was a bit fluffy, but the S8 arc was furthered slightly, and it was a welcome bit of fun in much larger story. People seem to view it as this huge First Night-style roadblock, but personally I think it was enjoyable and pretty enough to warrant it's quiet existence.

I get why people don't like it, but when it's years from now and you're re-reading the series in a one-er, you're going to be glad "After These Messages..." is there. The fact that S8 took the time to do a quirky little one-shot story like that makes it feel like Buffy to me.

[Enisy]

Joss seemed to frown at tangents like After These Messages a bit, too, in a roundabout way, with his comment that he "feels like he's had a little less success keeping [Season 8] focused on where it needs to go [than the televised seasons]".

[wenxina]

Feb 26, 2009 15:24:53 GMT -5 Paul said:

Nothing wrong with a bit of fanservice so long as it's kept in moderation! "After These Messages" was utterly harmless, it was a beautifully drawn love letter to the series' past, as well a way of paying respect to the could-have-been animated series. I admit that it was a bit fluffy, but the S8 arc was furthered slightly, and it was a welcome bit of fun in much larger story. People seem to view it as this huge First Night-style roadblock, but personally I think it was enjoyable and pretty enough to warrant it's quiet existence.

I get why people don't like it, but when it's years from now and you're re-reading the series in a one-er, you're going to be glad "After These Messages..." is there. The fact that S8 took the time to do a quirky little one-shot story like that makes it feel like Buffy to me.

Diversions are fine, as long as there is a suitable payoff. To me, the payoff was quite lacking here. I don't care much for fanservice, so it just didn't work for me.

[AndrewCrossett]

I had no problem with #20... I thought the "animated" parts were cute. It was a nice little farewell to the "Scooby Gang" era of Buffy, which we'll never see again. And the final page, with sad Buffy missing her old life, was one of my favorite images of the whole season. I just wanted to reach into the page and hug her.

[Paul]

Feb 26, 2009 15:32:33 GMT -5 Enisy said:

Joss seemed to frown at tangents like After These Messages a bit, too, in a roundabout way, with his comment that he "feels like he's had a little less success keeping [Season 8] focused on where it needs to go [than the televised seasons]".

He could also have been talking about "The Chain" and "No Future For You", since those stories are practically spin-offs and barely feature our core cast. He also said that the tangents were something they did on purpose as they explored the freedom of their new media, so I don't think he completely regrets them. I certainly don't. It was one issue. Of forty!

Less fanservice and more focus is probably a good thing, but "After These Messages..." was a one-off and I just can't begrudge it's existence one-bit. Like "Hush" and "Once More, With Feeling", it felt like an experiment with the media, as it blurred the line between television and comic via the animated series. I'm not comparing it to the quality of those episodes, it certainly doesn't live up to them, but it was interesting nonetheless.

Storywise, I actually recall rumours of a similar story planned for season six. Buffy would have been sent back to high school, except that Dawn wouldn't have been there. Depressed Buffy then has to choose between her childhood and adulthood. I think the story appeared in the Tales of the Slayers novels, but maybe this was Joss' canon version. Either way, it seems the story was waiting to be told. Also, as Andrew said, it was a nice goodbye to a bygone era that many fans seem to have difficulty letting go of.

[Enisy]

It was a story waiting to be told... with more insight into the characters, their relationships, their evolution over the years, and the related regrets than After These Messages offered. No way do I begrudge the premise; I only begrudge the story, precisely because it was a waste of such an amazing premise.

I haven't heard that rumour about Season 6, and although it's something I would have loved (and something that would have fit nicely in the context of the season), I don't see how it could have been done, when the actors had aged five years and David Boreanaz was unavailable.

[Paul]

Feb 26, 2009 16:18:56 GMT -5 Enisy said:

It was a story waiting to be told... with more insight into the characters, their relationships, their evolution over the years, and the related regrets than After These Messages offered. No way do I begrudge the premise; I only begrudge the story, precisely because it was a waste of such an amazing premise.

I haven't heard that rumour about Season 6, and although it's something I would have loved (and something that would have fit nicely in the context of the season), I don't see how it could have been done, when the actors had aged five years and David Boreanaz was unavailable.

You're right that the story could have had more depth, that's a fair point. I think it would have been had it been a season six episode. I'll be honest though and say my enjoyment stemmed mainly from the gorgeous artwork, with the added bonus of seeing Buffy having fun. It was more of a light-hearted visual experience for me, and I wasn't really looking for deep plot. I won't hold it against it.

I imagine the season six episode, assuming the rumour is even true, fell through precisely due to casting and set issues. IIRC, the TotS version is a lot darker than "ATM...". Willow and Xander also get sent back through time, and Buffy actively sabotages their efforts to get back to season six because she wants to stay with her mother. The episode probably evolved into "Normal Again", come to think of it.

[Joe]

Feb 26, 2009 16:35:40 GMT -5 Paul said:

Feb 26, 2009 16:18:56 GMT -5 Enisy said:

It was a story waiting to be told... with more insight into the characters, their relationships, their evolution over the years, and the related regrets than After These Messages offered. No way do I begrudge the premise; I only begrudge the story, precisely because it was a waste of such an amazing premise.

I haven't heard that rumour about Season 6, and although it's something I would have loved (and something that would have fit nicely in the context of the season), I don't see how it could have been done, when the actors had aged five years and David Boreanaz was unavailable.

You're right that the story could have had more depth, that's a fair point. I think it would have been had it been a season six episode. I'll be honest though and say my enjoyment stemmed mainly from the gorgeous artwork, with the added bonus of seeing Buffy having fun. It was more of a light-hearted visual experience for me, and I wasn't really looking for deep plot. I won't hold it against it.

I imagine the season six episode, assuming the rumour is even true, fell through precisely due to casting and set issues. IIRC, the TotS version is a lot darker than "ATM...". Willow and Xander also get sent back through time, and Buffy actively sabotages their efforts to get back to season six because she wants to stay with her mother. The episode probably evolved into "Normal Again", come to think of it.

Wait what? There was an episode planned where they go back in time to high school? Oh my god. How come I've never heard of this. Can someone give me an explanation with all the info we know about the would-be-awesome episode?

[Paul]

Feb 26, 2009 17:16:11 GMT -5 Joe said:

Feb 26, 2009 16:35:40 GMT -5 Paul said:

You're right that the story could have had more depth, that's a fair point. I think it would have been had it been a season six episode. I'll be honest though and say my enjoyment stemmed mainly from the gorgeous artwork, with the added bonus of seeing Buffy having fun. It was more of a light-hearted visual experience for me, and I wasn't really looking for deep plot. I won't hold it against it.

I imagine the season six episode, assuming the rumour is even true, fell through precisely due to casting and set issues. IIRC, the TotS version is a lot darker than "ATM...". Willow and Xander also get sent back through time, and Buffy actively sabotages their efforts to get back to season six because she wants to stay with her mother. The episode probably evolved into "Normal Again", come to think of it.

Wait what? There was an episode planned where they go back in time to high school? Oh my god. How come I've never heard of this. Can someone give me an explanation with all the info we know about the would-be-awesome episode?

I read this rumour on Wikipedia, where it has no source and is therefore very dodgy. However, it does seem fairly possible in light of "Normal Again", the Tales of the Slayer (the non-canon novels, not the canon comics) story written by Jane Espenson, and "After These Messages..."

I don't know what the episode would have been, but the Tales story is called "Again, Sunnydale" and is set in season 6/season 3.