Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Jun 9, 2009 18:23:17 GMT -5
Those were Old Ones. Old Ones, the First, and The Powers That Be are all distinct entities as far as I know. The Powers That Be were God-like beings that lived on Earth. They were driven out of Earth into another dimension by the Old Ones (giant demons, basically), who were presumably created by the First Evil. I guess they're all connected, but they're still different. Where does it say that the Old Ones drove out the Powers That Be? I don't remember ever learning anything exact about the PTB's origins. My understanding is that the demons shown in Fray weren't PTB necessarily if that's what you're referring to. In "Shiny Happy People", we get this exposition from Jasmine: My interpretation of that is the PTB were living peacefully on Earth before the Old Ones came, banishing them to their heavenly dimension. As seen though flashback in Fray, mankind became more and more powerful and learned to use magic to protect themselves from the Old Ones. Eventually, humans banished most of the Old Ones to other dimensions. Some remained, breeding with humans to create modern-day demons, while others infected humans, creating the first vampires. In "The Harvest", Giles tells us this... Eventually, the Shadow Men created the First Slayer to combat the vampires, and the rest is history... I should so be a Watcher! :smart:
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 9, 2009 18:31:23 GMT -5
I doubt the PTB would ever be Buffy villains. They're exclusively Angel characters and fit more with the themes of that series. Plus the whole PTB-as-Big-Bad has been done before with Jasmine. But if Buffy and Angel exist in the same world, and Buffy is getting to the point that she can banish all magic and demons from the world, it doesn't make sense that the PTB wouldn't introduce themselves to her in some way. And I think the Buffyverse and Angelverse are quite likely to be brought together by the end of the season, at least canonically. Jasmine was a PTB, but a renegade one. I'm not talking about them being BB's because they're going to turn out to be evil, or even necessarily turn against Buffy... Buffy will just see that their influence on her world is really no healthier than that of the demons, especially now that the demons aren't there to balance the game anymore. It won't necessarily be that Buffy wants to defeat the PTB's per se... just that she sees that humanity can't go on forever dancing on the strings of more powerful beings with their prophecies and their visions and their destinies... they need to cut the apron strings of both heaven and hell and let us find our own way. Joss's very prominent humanist beliefs are what lead me to believe he might go in that direction. I don't think there's ever been any long-term plans for Dawn, I think the writers were stuck with her after S5 and can't kill her off because she's too important to Buffy. I love Dawn, but's she's always been kind of neglected, story-wise. I think Joss knows what he wants to do with her... he likes the character and has never seen her as just a season 5 plot-mover, I think. He was less hands-on during seasons 6 and 7, so she wound up being used mostly as a brat or a damsel in distress, but I think JW knows where he's going with her this season. I wouldn't like Faith to die protecting Buffy. Girl's spent her life being defined by Buffy, she's got to die like that as well? She's gaining independance in S8, I'd like her to retain it. Maybe saving the team, then, rather than Buffy in particular. Saving the mission. She's wanted to be a team player since "Dirty Girls," but Buffy has mostly rejected her. This is her chance to prove Buffy wrong. (I *hope* she doesn't die doing it, but this is Joss.) Almost everyone outside of the core four (five?) is fair game I think. I'd say Angel and Spike are safe, given their solo titles, and possibly Faith since Scott hinted she might be getting her own book. *prays* He didn't say it would necessarily be an ongoing solo book... could be a one-shot or a miniseries. I think Joss would be fully willing to kill one of the Core Whatever. Given the magnitude of this season's climax, he might consider it inappropriate *not* to kill one of them. It's just possible he's gotten bored with that "big character dies, cue the tears" method of generating pathos, though. It seems kind of cheap and predictable after a while. There are other ways of raising emotion. We ended "Angel: AtF" with no main characters dead who weren't already dead at the start... though I don't know how much of that was just Joss respecting the story Brian wanted to tell.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Jun 9, 2009 19:05:57 GMT -5
I doubt the PTB would ever be Buffy villains. They're exclusively Angel characters and fit more with the themes of that series. Plus the whole PTB-as-Big-Bad has been done before with Jasmine. But if Buffy and Angel exist in the same world, and Buffy is getting to the point that she can banish all magic and demons from the world, it doesn't make sense that the PTB wouldn't introduce themselves to her in some way. And I think the Buffyverse and Angelverse are quite likely to be brought together by the end of the season, at least canonically. Jasmine was a PTB, but a renegade one. I'm not talking about them being BB's because they're going to turn out to be evil, or even necessarily turn against Buffy... Buffy will just see that their influence on her world is really no healthier than that of the demons, especially now that the demons aren't there to balance the game anymore. It won't necessarily be that Buffy wants to defeat the PTB's per se... just that she sees that humanity can't go on forever dancing on the strings of more powerful beings with their prophecies and their visions and their destinies... they need to cut the apron strings of both heaven and hell and let us find our own way. Joss's very prominent humanist beliefs are what lead me to believe he might go in that direction. Oh, I've heard your theories about humanity rejecting higher beings/destiny and finding their own way, and I think it's a great idea. Very much in line with Joss' personal beliefs, and a brilliant story to boot. I just think it's more of an Angel story, since that's the series which deals more with higher powers and fate. In fact, the writers once said back in the day that if they were to bring back the First Evil, they would do it in Angel since that concept fits better with that series' themes. Obviously that didn't happen, but at least the First had appeared in Buffy before. I think it would be extremely random for the PTB to show up in Buffy and be like "Hey y'all, we're the Big Bad" when they've never even been mentioned in that series before. As for the Buffyverse and the Angelverse becoming a coherent whole... I doubt it. I'd love it, but I doubt it, given the ongoing Angel series at IDW and Joss' nonexistant involvement in it. I think Joss knows what he wants to do with her... he likes the character and has never seen her as just a season 5 plot-mover, I think. He was less hands-on during seasons 6 and 7, so she wound up being used mostly as a brat or a damsel in distress, but I think JW knows where he's going with her this season. Joss loves the character, but I don't think he knows what to do with her. Her storylines since S6 have been consistantly messy and under-developed. I had high hopes for the mystical STD storyline, but "Living Doll" was a total anti-climax. Almost everyone outside of the core four (five?) is fair game I think. I'd say Angel and Spike are safe, given their solo titles, and possibly Faith since Scott hinted she might be getting her own book. *prays* He didn't say it would necessarily be an ongoing solo book... could be a one-shot or a miniseries. I think Joss would be fully willing to kill one of the Core Whatever. Given the magnitude of this season's climax, he might consider it inappropriate *not* to kill one of them. It's just possible he's gotten bored with that "big character dies, cue the tears" method of generating pathos, though. It seems kind of cheap and predictable after a while. There are other ways of raising emotion. We ended "Angel: AtF" with no main characters dead who weren't already dead at the start... though I don't know how much of that was just Joss respecting the story Brian wanted to tell. I love character deaths. I don't find them cheap and predictable if they're done right, which they mostly are in the Buffyverse. I'd quite like for the dead weight supporting characters like Rona and Wood to get flushed out, and maybe a couple of main characters for genuine impact. Killing Andrew would really hit me where it hurts. Bring on the pain! Grr!
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 9, 2009 19:45:25 GMT -5
As for the Buffyverse and the Angelverse becoming a coherent whole... I doubt it. I'd love it, but I doubt it, given the ongoing Angel series at IDW and Joss' nonexistant involvement in it. But that's just it... he doesn't have any more involvement in the IDW series... he DOES have the right to use Angel characters and concepts in season 8... and they are presumably concepts he considers worthwhile. If Buffy & Co. do succeed in bringing about the Fraypocalypse by the end of this season, banishing the demons and magic... and I'm 90% certain they will... what are they going to do next season? Sign stuff at conventions? Joss loves the character, but I don't think he knows what to do with her. Her storylines since S6 have been consistantly messy and under-developed. I had high hopes for the mystical STD storyline, but "Living Doll" was a total anti-climax. I'm confident he will surprise you. I love character deaths. I don't find them cheap and predictable if they're done right, which they mostly are in the Buffyverse. I'd quite like for the dead weight supporting characters like Rona and Wood to get flushed out, and maybe a couple of main characters for genuine impact. Killing Andrew would really hit me where it hurts. Bring on the pain! Grr! Yeah, yeah, you and your precious character deaths. Renee's death probably brought me more pain than any other character with so little development... not just in the Buffyverse, but anywhere. The horrible timing, the gruesome imagery, the heartbreaking final page from Renee's POV... if I'd been in the room with Joss and Drew at that moment I'd have knocked their heads together. But it was a tremendously well-done scene, and I see how it is vital to Xander's character arc. Still, you can only go to that well so often before Redshirt Syndrome sets in and it starts to get almost funny... hi there, character who's threatening to bring happiness to one of our heroes. Hope you didn't have any hopes and dreams or anything! Forgive me if I don't stand too close to you. There are other ways to create emotion. I hope Joss chooses to explore them instead of playing Freddy Kruger again. But I'm fully expecting a main character death before this is over.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Jun 9, 2009 20:10:22 GMT -5
As for the Buffyverse and the Angelverse becoming a coherent whole... I doubt it. I'd love it, but I doubt it, given the ongoing Angel series at IDW and Joss' nonexistant involvement in it. But that's just it... he doesn't have any more involvement in the IDW series... he DOES have the right to use Angel characters and concepts in season 8... and they are presumably concepts he considers worthwhile. If Buffy & Co. do succeed in bringing about the Fraypocalypse by the end of this season, banishing the demons and magic... and I'm 90% certain they will... what are they going to do next season? Sign stuff at conventions? But he's said he would only use Angel and Spike in small does so as not to tread on IDW's toes. So I don't think dragging Angel over to the Buffy side of the 'verse wouldn't really be keeping that promise. Hope I'm wrong though. Lol, that convention thing isn't a bad idea. Kind of a metafictional, breaking-the-fourth-wall kind of thing. Seriously though, we don't know for sure how S8 will end. I'm confident he will surprise you. I hope you're right. I'm being a little too harsh on ol' Dawnie, guess I'm still just disappointed from "Living Doll". I love character deaths. I don't find them cheap and predictable if they're done right, which they mostly are in the Buffyverse. I'd quite like for the dead weight supporting characters like Rona and Wood to get flushed out, and maybe a couple of main characters for genuine impact. Killing Andrew would really hit me where it hurts. Bring on the pain! Grr! Yeah, yeah, you and your precious character deaths. Renee's death probably brought me more pain than any other character with so little development... not just in the Buffyverse, but anywhere. The horrible timing, the gruesome imagery, the heartbreaking final page from Renee's POV... if I'd been in the room with Joss and Drew at that moment I'd have knocked their heads together. But it was a tremendously well-done scene, and I see how it is vital to Xander's character arc. Still, you can only go to that well so often before Redshirt Syndrome sets in and it starts to get almost funny... hi there, character who's threatening to bring happiness to one of our heroes. Hope you didn't have any hopes and dreams or anything! Forgive me if I don't stand too close to you. There are other ways to create emotion. I hope Joss chooses to explore them instead of playing Freddy Kruger again. But I'm fully expecting a main character death before this is over. Renee's death was truly effective because of the way it was done, from her POV. Very emotional hearing her dying thoughts, and proof that Joss' murderous impulses haven't gotten stale. I don't want them to introduce redshirt characters but I'd be happy for them to get rid of existing canon fodder like Vi, Rona, Wood, etc. Let's face it, those characters are never going be further developed, they're just hanging around in limbo. Might as well kill the bastards for some cheap shock value.
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Post by Rebecca on Jun 9, 2009 21:15:49 GMT -5
From this, I take it that the PTB and the Old Ones were cut from the same cloth, but they diverged when darkness corrupted some to malevolence. I take that as the First empowering the Old Ones with evil, ending with the PTB being banished to another dimension.
Where do Wolf Ram and Hart fall into this? lol.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 9, 2009 21:39:14 GMT -5
Wasn't it at one point stated that Wolfram and Hart were kind of like a band of mini-bads that kinda used their smarts to outwit their more powerful foes, and managed to claim a substantial stake in hell? Sounds like lawyers to me... And I arrived at the same conclusion as Rebecca about the whole PTB vs Old Ones deal.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 9, 2009 21:59:29 GMT -5
I don't want them to introduce redshirt characters but I'd be happy for them to get rid of existing canon fodder like Vi, Rona, Wood, etc. Let's face it, those characters are never going be further developed, they're just hanging around in limbo. Might as well kill the bastards for some cheap shock value. I'll give you Rona and Wood, but you keep your bloodstained hands away from my Vi.
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Post by Rebecca on Jun 9, 2009 22:07:36 GMT -5
Wasn't it at one point stated that Wolfram and Hart were kind of like a band of mini-bads that kinda used their smarts to outwit their more powerful foes, and managed to claim a substantial stake in hell? Sounds like lawyers to me... And I arrived at the same conclusion as Rebecca about the whole PTB vs Old Ones deal. So Wolfram and Hart not at all connected. Check. Oh, I've heard your theories about humanity rejecting higher beings/destiny and finding their own way, and I think it's a great idea. Very much in line with Joss' personal beliefs, and a brilliant story to boot. I just think it's more of an Angel story, since that's the series which deals more with higher powers and fate. In fact, the writers once said back in the day that if they were to bring back the First Evil, they would do it in Angel since that concept fits better with that series' themes. Obviously that didn't happen, but at least the First had appeared in Buffy before. I think it would be extremely random for the PTB to show up in Buffy and be like "Hey y'all, we're the Big Bad" when they've never even been mentioned in that series before. I think I have to disagree with the notion that Buffy doesn't deal with issues of fate. If that isn't your conclusion, my apologies, Paul. It is my understanding that Buffy has been dealing with and rejecting her fate since she was brought back in S6. Moreso in S7, especially with the First story line "The opportunity has only recently presented itself", and then exemplified in "Get it Done" and then later in activating the Slayerettes. She didn't bow to fate, but made her own way. Confronting and rejecting the PTB seems right in line with where Buffy is headed. Don't forget the way Twilight spoke in A Beautiful Sunset: he in under the conviction that Buffy is a detriment to the balance of magic, very similar to the loop hole which allowed The First to attack her in S7. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Twilight and the PTB weren't connected somehow.
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BlueJay
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
Resident Charmed Fan[Mo0:12]
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Post by BlueJay on Jun 9, 2009 22:09:42 GMT -5
I wonder how Buffy would have handled the Jasmine situation.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Jun 9, 2009 22:49:11 GMT -5
Im still confused as to why The First waited until Buffy was resurrected to launch its attack. It doesnt make a bit of sense to me, as it would have been a hell of a lot easier to do it before while Faith was locked up in jail and there was no one out to protect the Potentials.
Hasnt Buffy mentioned the Powers That Be before though? Maybe it was when she crossed over to Angel...yep that was it. "I Will Remember You". So its made very clear that Buffy is aware of the Powers, so maybe thats where Twilight comes in...however, I dont think that the PTB would cover themselves up with a mask. Theres still much more to Twilight and there will be so much more to toss around, but right now he is a confusing character. He doesnt like Buffy because he believes the spell that Willow cast has upset the balance between good and evil so therefore he wants to banish all magic out of this dimension? Wouldnt that affect him as well?
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 9, 2009 23:24:18 GMT -5
I don't know if Twilight is aligned with the PTB or not... but I suspect they'd waste no time in moving in big-time on a world that was no longer contested by the demonic powers.
Which wouldn't be much fun for us. The Higher Powers differ from the Lower ones mainly in that they're prettier and their theme music is in a higher register. Both of them view humanity mainly in terms of what we can do for them.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
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Post by Paul on Jun 10, 2009 6:56:39 GMT -5
I don't want them to introduce redshirt characters but I'd be happy for them to get rid of existing canon fodder like Vi, Rona, Wood, etc. Let's face it, those characters are never going be further developed, they're just hanging around in limbo. Might as well kill the bastards for some cheap shock value. I'll give you Rona and Wood, but you keep your bloodstained hands away from my Vi. Lol, I like Vi as well but that's why she needs to die. She should be ruthlessly dispatched off-panel and found later in the smouldering ruins of the Manhattan Slayer base. Mwahahahahahha! Oh, I've heard your theories about humanity rejecting higher beings/destiny and finding their own way, and I think it's a great idea. Very much in line with Joss' personal beliefs, and a brilliant story to boot. I just think it's more of an Angel story, since that's the series which deals more with higher powers and fate. In fact, the writers once said back in the day that if they were to bring back the First Evil, they would do it in Angel since that concept fits better with that series' themes. Obviously that didn't happen, but at least the First had appeared in Buffy before. I think it would be extremely random for the PTB to show up in Buffy and be like "Hey y'all, we're the Big Bad" when they've never even been mentioned in that series before. I think I have to disagree with the notion that Buffy doesn't deal with issues of fate. If that isn't your conclusion, my apologies, Paul. It is my understanding that Buffy has been dealing with and rejecting her fate since she was brought back in S6. Moreso in S7, especially with the First story line "The opportunity has only recently presented itself", and then exemplified in "Get it Done" and then later in activating the Slayerettes. She didn't bow to fate, but made her own way. Confronting and rejecting the PTB seems right in line with where Buffy is headed. Don't forget the way Twilight spoke in A Beautiful Sunset: he in under the conviction that Buffy is a detriment to the balance of magic, very similar to the loop hole which allowed The First to attack her in S7. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Twilight and the PTB weren't connected somehow. Oh, I'm not saying fate isn't a theme in Buffy, but Angel is far more spiritual/religious, and deals more with the concept of deities and higher powers taking an active role in your destiny. Angel is a Champion of the Powers That Be and is connected to them via Cordelia's visions. He contacts them through the Oracles and other avatars. Cordelia ascends to a higher plane, Jasmine comes to Earth to deliver world peace. Then there's the whole Shanshu thing. If they were ever going to do a storyline like the one Andrew described, it should be in Angel.
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Post by Rebecca on Jun 10, 2009 12:40:01 GMT -5
Im still confused as to why The First waited until Buffy was resurrected to launch its attack. It doesnt make a bit of sense to me, as it would have been a hell of a lot easier to do it before while Faith was locked up in jail and there was no one out to protect the Potentials. The timing wasn't perfect to me either, I think they kept it rather cryptic as to exactly why The First attacked then. Twilight is a cryptic character, that's for sure. Though the conundrum that is he, I'm not sure he wishes to banish all magic parallel to the Fraypocolypse (awesome word, btws). I think at this point he just wants to balance good and evil. That said, if at some point he does want to banish magic from this dimension, that may not necessarily be disadvantageous to him, especially if he hails from a different dimension originally (hence, watching Earth, hence connection with PTB). It's only theory, only a possibility. But like I've said, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened that way. How would that tie into the whole mask thing... maybe it's Xander's or Giles' body from a different reality/dimension. There's all sorts of dimensions, some without shrimp, some with nothing but shrimp, and possibly a dimension where Giles is a weird powerful magic dude obsessed with balance. I dunno... it depends on how Joss wants to write it. I definitely see your point that the PTB have primarily been in Angel. Most def. I just see Andrew's point that Angel and Buffy are moving in a direction to merge canonically, that fate-storyline may be more fitting in Angel, but the theme of destiny and defying such wouldn't be ill-fitted in Buffy. In fact, it would be an excellent storyline to move Buffy forward.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 10, 2009 12:55:19 GMT -5
Come to think of it, Rona and Robin Wood are probably safe. If you kill them off, then together with Kendra, Mr. Trick, Nikki Wood and Gunn, it becomes pretty clear that blackness is a fatal condition in the Buffyverse...
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Post by wenxina on Jun 10, 2009 12:57:11 GMT -5
Gunn's alive and well. EDIT: Realized that "well" might be stretching the truth a wee bit. He's alive... and working through some issues.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jun 10, 2009 13:06:19 GMT -5
Yeah, but he DID die.
And I forgot to add Renee to the list.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Jun 10, 2009 13:52:46 GMT -5
Im still confused as to why The First waited until Buffy was resurrected to launch its attack. It doesnt make a bit of sense to me, as it would have been a hell of a lot easier to do it before while Faith was locked up in jail and there was no one out to protect the Potentials. The timing wasn't perfect to me either, I think they kept it rather cryptic as to exactly why The First attacked then. There lies a problem with the Buffyverse. Everytime some plot hole is made or something is left unexplained, I think people tend to think its for a reason. Sometimes, there is just huge plot holes. I remember hearing from one of the writers that they had something planned for that and had it explained, but got so caught up in other stuff, that it was completely forgotten about. Twilight is a cryptic character, that's for sure. Though the conundrum that is he, I'm not sure he wishes to banish all magic parallel to the Fraypocolypse (awesome word, btws). I think at this point he just wants to balance good and evil. That said, if at some point he does want to banish magic from this dimension, that may not necessarily be disadvantageous to him, especially if he hails from a different dimension originally (hence, watching Earth, hence connection with PTB). It's only theory, only a possibility. But like I've said, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened that way. I would love to see the worlds merge, well technically they already are, but you know. I just think its strange that they have had major stuff happen before and have never crossed over when they technically should: Buffy SHOULD have learned about Jasmine, when Buffy needed help with Glory...they SHOULD have asked Angel. Its foolish to believe that these people walk around in the dumps at a loss all the time because they dont know what to do when they cant defeat an enemy but you have this whole other team just a couple towns away. How would that tie into the whole mask thing... maybe it's Xander's or Giles' body from a different reality/dimension. There's all sorts of dimensions, some without shrimp, some with nothing but shrimp, and possibly a dimension where Giles is a weird powerful magic dude obsessed with balance. I dunno... it depends on how Joss wants to write it. Im hoping that a legitimate reason is given for why whomever Twilight is, wears a mask. It may be a comic, but its still the same universe, and I dont want them to feel that just because its not in comic form, that they have to have comic-y villains.
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Post by wenxina on Jun 10, 2009 23:22:28 GMT -5
Im still confused as to why The First waited until Buffy was resurrected to launch its attack. It doesnt make a bit of sense to me, as it would have been a hell of a lot easier to do it before while Faith was locked up in jail and there was no one out to protect the Potentials. El D and myself had a similar conversation a while back. It's stated that the First was only able to act when Buffy was resurrected because of the magical mumbo jumbo involved with Willow's resurrection spell. So, at face level, even if the First wanted to strike, it couldn't since the opportunity had not shown itself. But what was the opportunity exactly? If it's merely the fact that 2 Slayers now exist at the same time, then what stopped the First from striking the first time Buffy was resurrected, and Kendra called? Hence, I don't think it's got so much to do with the fact that 2 Slayers now live, but rather Willow's spell messed with some primal forces, and thus allowed the First an in. Which then leads to the question as to what that in entails exactly. We know that the First was still incorporeal, like It was in S3. That much hasn't changed. But Its plans seem much grander this time; i.e. taking over the world and presumably bringing the world back to the old order. Whether this was the plan back in the day isn't clear... but evidently whatever imbalance Willow's spell caused was the key. So essentially, the First had all of S6 and the early part of S7 to prep for Its world domination scheme. First up: wipe out the Potentials and the Watchers. Easy enough. Infiltrate the Watchers' Council and get the list and send the Bringers out to exterminate them. Well, at least wipe out the known Potentials and their Watchers. All this makes sense until you get to the part where the First tried to kill Faith in prison. Now, since no Slayer was seen/mentioned to be Called after Buffy's death in "The Gift", it's a reasonable argument that the Slayer line must now only pass through Faith. So why go for Faith? That would just Call another girl, leaving the score at 2 Slayers. Why not go for Buffy? I have two reasons, one my own fanwanked one, and another one that may actually have been the reason that Joss and Co. had in mind, but it goes against canon, and just shows that at times, even creators have fallible memories (i.e. Warren anyone?). Right. First. My personal opinion that the First has personal beef with Buffy. Buffy was the one to single-handedly foil Its plans in S3. Buffy was the one that taunted It, and challenge Its supremacy. Not Faith. Thus, the First wanted Buffy there at the very end to see everything she held dear go up in flames. That would explain the headgames It played with Buffy, sending her cryptic clues, never quite letting Caleb kill her when he could easily have done so. All Caleb really did was break Buffy's spirit temporarily. And that seemed to be the MO. Right... but there's still the issue of killing Faith activating another Slayer. Well, if you think about it... a new Slayer, no matter how well-trained is just a rookie. Case in point, Buffy outdoing Satsu, Leah, and Rowena at the same time. Plus, it was probably just a loose tie to AtS at that point, since Faith would be instrumental in saving Angel and subduing Angelus. Now, the other reason is kinda strange, considering the established canon on Slayer transmission. In one of the four (I think it was four) drafts of the script for "Chosen", written by Joss himself, it is stated that the death of not just Faith, but Faith AND Buffy was requisite for the Calling of a new Slayer. This of course runs counter to established canon, since only Kendra's death was required to Call Faith. Thankfully, this version was never shot... probably because someone realized the inconsistency. However, the point I was trying to make is, perhaps during the writing of S7 (and S4 of AtS), the concept of the deaths of both Slayers was being toyed with. It's quite an interesting concept really... the whole thing about two wrongs essentially making a right: two deaths required to return the Slayer line to status quo. Meaning, killing Faith alone wouldn't have Called another Slayer yet... Buffy would have to die too. Which would give more credibility to the Scoobies understanding of how the transmission works, since Buffy still thinks that her death could activate the next girl. However, since this explanation is based entirely on the premise of an unshot script, I'd say that it's dismissible as an actual explanation for the First's motives, but may be used as conjecture as to what the writers were thinking about. Oh, and if you're curious about where I read the bit about the unused shooting scripts, I'm in the middle of reading this new collection of essays: Buffy Meets the Academy: Essays on the Episodes and Scripts as Texts. It's in the first essay by Kevin K. Durand entitled "Canon Fodder: Assembling the Text".
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Mathieu
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Post by Mathieu on Jun 10, 2009 23:44:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the long explanation Wenxina... Very interesting. Do you know if there's anywhere I could find the four alternative scripts for Chosen on the Internet?
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