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Post by Emmie on Jul 1, 2009 18:51:30 GMT -5
Thanks guys!
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antoniofjm
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Post by antoniofjm on Jul 1, 2009 19:05:49 GMT -5
Your insight on the issue was so good Emmie
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menomegirl
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Post by menomegirl on Jul 1, 2009 19:14:10 GMT -5
Wonderful review, Emmie. I thought it quite insightful.
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menomegirl
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Post by menomegirl on Jul 1, 2009 19:18:28 GMT -5
Definitely the best thing to come out of S8 in a long time. I completely agree with that. I think it's just what season 8 needed, when it needed it the most.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 1, 2009 19:25:53 GMT -5
OMG! THAT was good! And hilarious! And.. oh.. weird as hell: What was Tara doing in Buffy's wedding? Am I the only one who found that disturbing, specially her line "I still blame you for my death". Really creepy. I guess she was there because Buffy blames herself for Tara's death. Can't be the only dream Buffy has had with people saying "It's your fault Buffy".
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Jul 1, 2009 21:19:25 GMT -5
"Everybody die always" + posture & heavy brow = Beer Bad Buffy
Gotta say, this was pretty damn funny but also pretty curious and obviously there's a lot more going on than is immediately obvious. This has got to be one of Buffy's dreams, what with it being a lot about her personal fears, mixed with a little bit of the future visions. I wonder if this is the first time Buffy's dreamt of the fight in the stone room?
Xander as an anime character was... unique. I wanna read deep into that. If I try hard enough, I'm sure I could connect it to "Antique" (his Dracula days), where he was drawn really cartoony, and Buffy's dream in TLWH2 where Buffy wants to go to bed with him, and Buffy sleeping in his bed in "After These Messages..." but I'm not gonna try that hard.
The title itself "Always Darkest [Before the Dawn]". Buffy's dreams in "Restless" mentioned Dawn before she ever showed up. In "Living Doll", the last few lines of the issue might have even been an anvil; god knows Buffy's had nightmares before about killing Dawn, and has even confessed it's crossed her mind. I just see the comic drawing connections and asking what should be made of them. To me, the title, including the part that can be inferred, "Before the Dawn", is a reference to her sister and the betrayal in the stone room.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Jul 1, 2009 22:55:17 GMT -5
So in that case, whomever guessed that Dawn would be the one to betray Buffy is right, and that would make sense, as Dawns life on this world has been nothing but hell and she is a byproduct of magic.
Emmie, your review and insight was spot on, so I really cant even disagree. I agree!
When did Buffy dream about killing Dawn, other than Spiral? She didnt actually want to KILL Dawn, it was a metaphor for her giving up and allowing her to die.
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Jul 1, 2009 23:05:33 GMT -5
I don't believe she actually wanted to kill Dawn, but she admitted it had crossed her mind (S5? to Giles? drawing a blank here), if it would ever become necessary to stop Glory. The dream during her catatonia was a result of her fear that it would happen, either: that it would become necessary to kill Dawn, or that Dawn would die just because everybody always dies around Buffy. Either way, her fear was that she wouldn't be able to ever really protect her sister from herself.
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Hellbound Hyperion
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Post by Hellbound Hyperion on Jul 1, 2009 23:12:25 GMT -5
May I jump in with an observation? Since we're now talking about Dawn in connection with the betrayal room... Conversations With Dead People anyone? "When the time comes, Buffy won't choose you... she'll be against you." Or am I the one reading too deep now?
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 1, 2009 23:16:18 GMT -5
I don't believe she actually wanted to kill Dawn, but she admitted it had crossed her mind (S5? to Giles? drawing a blank here), if it would ever become necessary to stop Glory. She mentioned in season 7, when she and giles is in the graveyard(lies my parents told me?), that she now would be ready to kill Dawn to save the world, or something to that affect. What line in Living doll made you think Buffy was ready to kill dawn?
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Jul 1, 2009 23:17:29 GMT -5
May I jump in with an observation? Since we're now talking about Dawn in connection with the betrayal room... Conversations With Dead People anyone? "When the time comes, Buffy won't choose you... she'll be against you." Or am I the one reading too deep now? Even if you feel like you might be, it's entirely possible Joss felt like doing something more substantial with that line, and felt like it could fit with this arc. I really like the idea. ETA:
What line in Living doll made you think Buffy was ready to kill dawn? The very last one. Call it a portend. And in general, the last page, plus a panel or two on the previous one. It's all about this same stuff: Buffy worrying that she can't protect Dawn from herself (herself, being, her world, being as dangerous as it is to live in, and herself, being, Buffy). I know Buffy meant it as a joke to Dawn, but the funny thing about life (and also about Joss) is that the moment you crack a joke about something you've always feared, you're screwed.
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Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Jul 2, 2009 2:04:19 GMT -5
In regards to Buffy's dream about Spike and Angel being "together", and having the whole threesome dream in the beginning of the season, other than having just a gay relationship, I would say this season has had the most homosexual things than in any of the other seasons. Maybe its just me, but I hope its not just going to start being thrown around just for the sake of it. And im also not saying I am against that stuff, CLEARLY not, but its just obvious now.
-Willow and Tara -Buffy and Satsu -Willow and Saga Vasuki -Angel and Spike TWICE
The thought had occured to me because I was telling my mom who doesn't follow Season 8 at all, nothing to do with it, loosely followed the show but at least knew who the characters were...anyway, I told her about this and her first response was "Is it just me or does this Season 8 stuff have a LOT of gay stuff in it?"
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dane5by5
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Post by dane5by5 on Jul 2, 2009 7:58:05 GMT -5
I don't believe she actually wanted to kill Dawn, but she admitted it had crossed her mind (S5? to Giles? drawing a blank here), if it would ever become necessary to stop Glory. She mentioned in season 7, when she and giles is in the graveyard(lies my parents told me?), that she now would be ready to kill Dawn to save the world, or something to that affect. What line in Living doll made you think Buffy was ready to kill dawn? That scene was chilling. I'm very fond of Lies My Parents Told Me, it was a great examination of the headspace of Buffy, Giles and Spike in Season Seven and wonderful to see how much these characters have changed (and remained the same). I'm surprised how important and funny and tragic this THREE PAGE story was. Joss Whedon has once again delivered an original and quirky story, filled with subext and foreshadowing. When Scott Allie said this story was a little comedic short, that made sense, how much actual story can you tell in three pages. Well if you're Joss Whedon, a heck of a lot. He is the master of the dream story, and this was perhaps the most insight we've had into what Buffy is actually feeling and thinking this Season. The first appearance of Tara since she died, and it's as a manifestation of Buffy's guilt. Angel and Spike make a cameo to convey Buffy's isolation and relationship anxiety (and fear of rejection?). A wedding to someone she despises, harkens back to the self loathing of Season Six. Buffy always wears a facade of togetherness, and this was a very thoughtful look at the more fragile Buffy we rarely see.
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Vail
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Post by Vail on Jul 2, 2009 10:05:25 GMT -5
OMG! THAT was good! And hilarious! And.. oh.. weird as hell: What was Tara doing in Buffy's wedding? Am I the only one who found that disturbing, specially her line "I still blame you for my death". Really creepy. I guess she was there because Buffy blames herself for Tara's death. Can't be the only dream Buffy has had with people saying "It's your fault Buffy". Yep, I guess it'd be normal if Buffy dreamed about Tara after "Anywhere but here", it just felt weird to see Tara back - especially in that situation. I just have this feeling Joss wouldn't use Tara that easily unless there was something more to it. Or maybe I'm hoping too hard Tara's gonna be back - somehow - just like Joss had planned. It seems to me past deaths (Jenny, Angel, Tara, maybe Renee) are going to have a bigger role or have their final consequences solved in this season.
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rogue11
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Post by rogue11 on Jul 2, 2009 11:24:22 GMT -5
Wow i never knew this was coming out actually. But its really cool to see Joss and Jo working so close together on this and this is our first chance to see Jo Chen doing interior artwork whoch i must say looks boo-ti-ful!! Yay oh freakin yay for the Angel and Spike part but at that point I knew it was a dream I mean common. Adding Caleb was an interesting choice, and this is our first chance to see Tara in season 8. I would have imagined her showingup under more dramatic cirumstances but I guess they didn't want to make it a huge deal. Interesting how Tara said she blames Buffy for her death but that may just be Buffy's mind making her think that she's the one to blame. I thought that was Kennedy too and then you see the Drusilla-looking dress and think wait a minute only Willow wore that dress this season so that fact that she has her arm around Willow like that is that saying that she cant escape becoming like that? I didn't see Dawn in the wedding photo wonder why she wouldn't be at the wedding :S Hoefully that betrayal seen will come soon and maybe we'll see why exactly Willow goes dark. The last time Willow went dark was when she tried surpressing her powers for a while and then Tara's death brought her back to the dark side. We already know that Willow is going to try again to surpress her powers, maybe thats going to have to do something with her going dark again.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 2, 2009 12:40:25 GMT -5
Interesting, that you think Willow repressing her powers made her into Dark Willow. I think that if she hadn't tried to control it before Tara was killed, Xander wouldn't have been able to talk sense into her. The magic would have had too strong control over her by then.
Anyone think it was so sad when Buffy was happy about being a bride? I think it shows that she still wants to live a normal life, or atleast marry, and that she fears that she will never find someone to be with who is normal and/or healthy for her.
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rufio
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Post by rufio on Jul 2, 2009 14:01:15 GMT -5
I LOVE this! Buffy's dream sequences have always been intriguing.
First off to NICHOLAS- 'alot of gay stuff' in season 8? really? it's not like theirs some huge gay orgy in every issue, and one of the biggest characters (Willow) is GAY. The series has been dealing with gay stuff for years now and yea we're in season 8-buffy's grown a lot and she experimented herself with satsu-there's nothing wrong with that! If you don't want to see gay storylines go read something else. I'm sorry, but it's just insulting to say that the gay storylines should have a limit. Yes this isn't Queer as folk where its all about the gays, but just because it's prevalent doesn't mean that it's overpowering everything else going on- and there is ALOT of other stuff going on-plenty of non-gay-related stuff so enjoy all of that at least.
But while I'm on the topic of sexuality- hello Spangel! I could die for that LOL! its very interesting that thats even in buffys mind. And the wedding scene? really strange but interesting to see all the cameos. The cheese man definitely should've been in there lol. And Emmies review was very good but it made me wonder when she said that buffy is missing angel and spike because they understand how she feels- what about Faith?! Where was she in this dream?? Like always, it seems like buffy discards faith.
The whole thing is so interesting to me.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Jul 2, 2009 14:44:23 GMT -5
rufio, I think you misunderstood nicholas post. Not to answer in his place, but from what I got, he said there's "a lot" of gay stuff compared to other seasons, not "too much" and that he's not against it, but he doesn't want it to be used just for the sake of it. There's nothing anti-gay in his post. what about Faith?! Where was she in this dream?? Like always, it seems like buffy discards faith. There's no Dawn either. Or Giles. Or Joyce or Anya. There's a lot of people from Buffy's life that's not in her dream. Maybe Buffy wasn't dreaming about Faith because other things were on her mind when she went to sleep. EDIT- Anyone else who gets a lot of ideas in their heads when reading "rub*a","sproing", "glide" etcetc? I can magine which part of them made the sound "sproing" and "glide"....
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rufio
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Post by rufio on Jul 2, 2009 15:08:39 GMT -5
I didn't say he was anti-gay but I don't think it's being used just for the sake of it...at all. Willow's been gay for the majority of the show and Buffy had a gay involvement this season which wasn't pointless-there was a valid story there. And that would explain her dream concerning Spike & Angel...not to mention it'd already been hinted at that there was once something shared between Spike & Angel-not that Buffy even knows about that...or does she??
and point taken about faiths absence from buffys dream-but I still wish buffy and faith were in a better place than they seem to be. I mean, faith has grown up A LOT-she's mature and fighting the good fight by buffys side-I don't know why Buffy doesn't appreciate her more.
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Post by shocksmile on Jul 2, 2009 15:40:07 GMT -5
damn, that was awesome! and like everyone here I´ll spend the next couple o days analyzing every single frame.
that´s what I always loved about joss´ work. it´s never been just entertainment. it´s food for thought.
re: the gay debate. now, in season 8, buffy and the scoobies are all in their mid/end twenties. that´s EXACTLY the age when a lot of people start coming out, being more selfconscious and more open about their sexuality. you don´t deal with it that way when you´re in your teens. it´s no wonder that it´s more of an issue NOW. oh, yeah, and I couldn´t care less.
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