Always Darkest - Dark Horse Presents #24

[trunkstheslayer]

Jul 3, 2009 22:55:57 GMT -5 Nicholas said:

Im not saying there should be a limit of gay storylines and related things in Buffy or television at all, what I am saying is, if they were to have some more, I would much rather it be evenly spaced out within the rest of the series, such as Season 9.

Angel and Spike, if they boned I am definately sure that it would have been more implied than just the line "Well there was that one time...". And what makes you think they boned anyway? Just because two people are open minded doesnt mean they boned.

Dude, believe what you want. Word of God (Joss in this verse) trumps you though. It was very blatantly stated. Just because you missed the line, doesn't delete it.
Nobody's saying "open minded= the fucked". Context is your friend. Go watch the commentary for A Hole in the World. Long story short: You're wrong.

Jul 4, 2009 7:45:35 GMT -5 rufio said:

and trunkstheslayer- womens sexuality is no more fluid than mens, but youre right that society makes men hide it more.

You don't think so? Cuz everything I've studied thus far seems to imply otherwise.

Jul 4, 2009 7:57:00 GMT -5 Kratos said:

Jul 3, 2009 18:33:39 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Except that isn't what he said. At all.
What he said had nothing to do with being drunk or being a vamp: He simply said they were open minded guys and that he found it ridiculous that people would think they hadn't 'been intimate' at least once in that huge span of time.
They boned. Nobody's saying they fell in love.

Pretty sure he did drop the words vampires,drunk as possible reasons. And even if he didn't, being intimate one time can have thousends of different implications. You are the one that thinks that they boned even though that was never said.

Hole in the World commentary. Go watch it.

Why?
Kind of goes right back to that double standard bit doesn't it? Out of character now? Sure. In the time of Angelus? Not so much, according to the brain they were birthed from.
No, they're not a legit pairing. They have, however, paired off for at least some amount of 'intimate alone time'


2-Men, in our society, are frowned upon for being gay more than women so they have a bigger reason to hide it.

No it doesn't. Even then it would be out of character.

Wow, I'm so convinced.
Except, ya know, you're wrong.

One "intimate" encounter, whatever that means, in 20y living with eachother. 1 time in 20years!

Cuz it takes more than one time to realize it isn't your thing huh?

It has nothing to do with gay men in our society, Spike and Angel simply aren't gay nor bi.

NOBODY SAID THEY WERE.
Do PLEASE pay attention to the actual things being said.
Nobody said they're gay or bi. It IS stated flat out by Joss that they've 'been there, done that'. It means nothing beyond that, but it's canon by Word of God.
The bit about gay men being less accepted by society has nothing to do with Spike/Angel.

Yes there is still lots of discrimination and hate towards gays in the world, you aren't going to change those people's minds by turning hetero-sexual male characters in comics gay all of the sudden.

Are you...VERY stoned?
Go back and read my post. You very clearly didn't if you think this is what I said.

In fact i think it might even back fire. Most of Joss's fans are already pretty openminded they definitely shouldn't be the target. I don't think a lot of them buy the comics for life-lessons or changing their world views, myself included, i buy them for entertainment and enjoyment of watching the characters evolve.

Do you want a cookie or something? Seriously, you just put about a dozen words in my mouth that I didn't even come CLOSE to saying.
Go back and try again.

[Nicholas]

Okay well unless Joss Whedon makes an official statement saying "Spike and Angel had sex way back when" then I don't believe it. I can understand if Drusilla and Darla all did something together with them frankly because it has been shown that vampires are very openminded and sexual creatures, however by Joss saying "they were openminded and people who don't think they did anything in that time" doesn't mean they had sex with eachother. That's just something ridiculous if one time they just happened to have sex with eachother. Circumstances, that's what matters. Even Buffy and Satsu had circumstances which made their hookup more understandable, and look how big a deal that was. IT WAS ON THE NEWS for godsakes! Im pretty sure even if Joss flat out said they screwed in an interview that it would have been a big deal. Scott Allie even said in the recent Q&A that the Spike/Angel thing in Always Darkest was a funny shoutout to a certain area of the fandom. Hence, it was in a dream.


And I agree with the statement that turning characters either gay/bi/experimental could backfire. There's nothing wrong with a character being bi or gay, or even experimenting, but if they start making all the main characters do it, then the writers have seriously lost their talent when it came to writing the story. It would make no sense.

[Kratos]

Jul 4, 2009 14:32:55 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Hole in the World commentary. Go watch it.
Wow, I'm so convinced.
Except, ya know, you're wrong. Cuz it takes more than one time to realize it isn't your thing huh?NOBODY SAID THEY WERE.
Do PLEASE pay attention to the actual things being said.
Nobody said they're gay or bi. It IS stated flat out by Joss that they've 'been there, done that'. It means nothing beyond that, but it's canon by Word of God.

Hmm, no if Joss wanted it to be absolutely 100% fact, then he should have had it mentioned on the show. Not everybody cares or followes audio commentary and that doesn't make them any less of fan then us. The simply watch the show, not following interviews,commentaries,ect. And i heard the commentary more then enough times.
On the show it is the simple words of Spike saying of "being intimate that one time" which again can mean many different things. You are the one that's fixated on making it so that they boned, little bit obsessive.

Jul 4, 2009 14:32:55 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

The bit about gay men being less accepted by society has nothing to do with Spike/Angel.Are you...VERY stoned?
Go back and read my post. You very clearly didn't if you think this is what I said.
Do you want a cookie or something? Seriously, you just put about a dozen words in my mouth that I didn't even come CLOSE to saying.

Well then why the hell did you put it in there if it had nothing to do with the current disscusion? And no, i don't do drugs.

Jul 4, 2009 14:32:55 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Go back and try again.

Nah not worth it, you will simply give a rude reply again, not really making any point just saying "You're wrong!" over and over again. No thanks

[trunkstheslayer]

Edit: Know what....why are we even discussing this? It's irrelevant to the overall topic and none of us is gonna change our stance one way or the next. I'm siding with "Word of God = canon" and you guys disagree. Such is life.
So...back to how awesome Jo Chen's art work is *gawks*




(pre-edit below)

Jul 4, 2009 14:50:31 GMT -5 Nicholas said:

Okay well unless Joss Whedon makes an official statement saying "Spike and Angel had sex way back when" then I don't believe it. I can understand if Drusilla and Darla all did something together with them frankly because it has been shown that vampires are very openminded and sexual creatures, however by Joss saying "they were openminded and people who don't think they did anything in that time" doesn't mean they had sex with eachother.

Except yes, it does. Go listen to the quote in context.
"I don't believe it" doesn't change the reality.
I'd like to know why you're so adamantly against the idea. There's any number of reasons it could've happened. Not the least, or worst, of which being to spite Dru and Darla for whatever reason...or for their amusement actually.
Do, please, explain (after listening to the commentary) what else Joss could be implying.

That's just something ridiculous if one time they just happened to have sex with eachother.

Because you say so?

Circumstances, that's what matters. Even Buffy and Satsu had circumstances which made their hookup more understandable, and look how big a deal that was. IT WAS ON THE NEWS for godsakes! Im pretty sure even if Joss flat out said they screwed in an interview that it would have been a big deal. Scott Allie even said in the recent Q&A that the Spike/Angel thing in Always Darkest was a funny shoutout to a certain area of the fandom. Hence, it was in a dream.

False comparison, that was very blatantly drawn as a dream.
Also, let's face it, Scott's made errors before though that's entirely irrelevant here.
You want further evidence? Spike makes a shoutout to Joss's comment in either the last or second to last episode of Angel.
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that one time". ..
Actually, I scratch that. That line came before the commentary if I remember right.

And I agree with the statement that turning characters either gay/bi/experimental could backfire. There's nothing wrong with a character being bi or gay, or even experimenting, but if they start making all the main characters do it, then the writers have seriously lost their talent when it came to writing the story. It would make no sense.

How is this even remotely relevant to ANYTHING?
ONE character has come out. ONE. Buffy was never even hinted as 'switching teams' so that doesn't count.

I find it odd when people who claim to have no issue with the LGBT community suddenly say "BUT THERE'S NO WAY THEY COULD DO THAT!" in regards to two male or two female characters hooking up. It's ridiculous.
What exactly is so hard to believe that, in a huge amount of time together, Spike and Angelus had something strictly sexual? Given their relationship, and their relationships to the other vamps, there's a billion different paths of explanation, all equally valid. So please, don't hand me that "There's no way" garbage. Especially without an actual, objective, explanation.

Jul 4, 2009 17:09:44 GMT -5 Kratos said:

Jul 4, 2009 14:32:55 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Hole in the World commentary. Go watch it.
Wow, I'm so convinced.
Except, ya know, you're wrong. Cuz it takes more than one time to realize it isn't your thing huh?NOBODY SAID THEY WERE.
Do PLEASE pay attention to the actual things being said.
Nobody said they're gay or bi. It IS stated flat out by Joss that they've 'been there, done that'. It means nothing beyond that, but it's canon by Word of God.

Hmm, no if Joss wanted it to be absolutely 100% fact, then he should have had it mentioned on the show.

Because you say so.
So Dumbledore isn't gay in the Harry Potter verse, right?

Not everybody cares or followes audio commentary and that doesn't make them any less of fan then us.

Doesn't mean you get to write it off as non-existent either.
After all, what other explanation do we have for Warren in Season 8 aside from commentary from outside the story?

The simply watch the show, not following interviews,commentaries,ect. And i heard the commentary more then enough times.
On the show it is the simple words of Spike saying of "being intimate that one time" which again can mean many different things. You are the one that's fixated on making it so that they boned, little bit obsessive.

No, I'm fixated on the fact that it was stated flat out. The fact that you're so adamant to deny it strikes me as odd.
Why are you so dead set about calling it impossible until Joss states it in an interview? And for that matter, why would that interview count for more than the commentary?

Well then why the hell did you put it in there if it had nothing to do with the current disscusion? And no, i don't do drugs.

Read for context kiddo. The idea of two women not having their sexuality questioned when hooking up, vs two men DID come up in this thread.

Jul 4, 2009 14:32:55 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Go back and try again.

Nah not worth it, you will simply give a rude reply again, not really making any point just saying "You're wrong!" over and over again. No thanks

Funny, I've given plenty of explanation and been more than kind given your very blatant ignoring of what was actually written in my post.

[wenxina]

No more insulting each other, please? trunks, please refrain from personally attacking other members.
It may be the 4th of July, but warning meters will still be slapped on if deemed appropriate.

[Nicholas]

How is it you can say someone has a problem with the LGBT community when they are a part of it?

And it would appear that you are too busy trying to insult people and make your opinion solid fact rather than just respecting everyone elses opinion. No one said there was a problem with gay storylines in Buffy or the fact that there was a Spike/Angel hookup in Always Darkest expecially considering it was a DREAM, my original statement asked if anyone had noticed how there was A LOT more gay themes expressed this season VS other seasons. I could have been aplauding that for all you know.

When it comes to Spike and Angel outside of Buffy's dream, im not saying I am against it. When it comes to sex, however, there is ALWAYS circumstances. When two people are in love and want to consumate their relationship, those are circumstances. People don't just walk around screwing eachother for no reason. Im saying depending on why it happened, I could understand it. If Buffy slept with Satsu because she couldn't find her LOST Dvds, wouldn't that be bad circumstances? If Spike and Angel did anything together under understandable circumstances, I would be okay with it, such as a foursome with Darla and Dru, or something to that effect, but saying that the characters Spike and Angel that we have come to know for YEARS were just sitting down watching TV and decided to bang eachother is ridiculous.

[Giant Michael]

God, Jo Chen is good.

Interesting that Tara showed up. I can't believe more people aren't all over the fact that Georges mentioned 'Tara is probably the hardest [likeness to draw]' way back in the first Q&A Slayalive did with him.

MB x

[Kratos]

Jul 4, 2009 17:52:12 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Because you say so.
So Dumbledore isn't gay in the Harry Potter verse, right?Doesn't mean you get to write it off as non-existent either.

No, that's a whole different ballgame, Dumbledore is gay,his sexual preference was kept very vague up until the end. But he is undoubtly gay. Not comperable to Spike or Angel who have a long history with falling inlove/having sex with females.

No, I'm fixated on the fact that it was stated flat out. The fact that you're so adamant to deny it strikes me as odd.
Why are you so dead set about calling it impossible until Joss states it in an interview? And for that matter, why would that interview count for more than the commentary?

No, i'm not denying it. That 1 intimate time did happen, but as to what it was or how it came to be is a mystery to me.
I didn't want it in an interview, i wanted Joss to explain it on the show that would have made a 100%fact, he didn't thus it's kept vague. Interview doesn't count more then commentary.

Read for context kiddo. The idea of two women not having their sexuality questioned when hooking up, vs two men DID come up in this thread.

Sorry junior, i don't do context, i do facts. And there were fans that questioned Buffy's sexuality after sleeping with Satsu, Joss's words put a stop to that(mostly).

Funny, I've given plenty of explanation and been more than kind given your very blatant ignoring of what was actually written in my post.

Funny, all i've seen is you being very rude in replying to Nicholas and me.

[Skytteflickan88]

Jul 5, 2009 0:50:33 GMT -5 Nicholas said:

If Spike and Angel did anything together under understandable circumstances, I would be okay with it, such as a foursome with Darla and Dru, or something to that effect, but saying that the characters Spike and Angel that we have come to know for YEARS were just sitting down watching TV and decided to bang eachother is ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? Maybe they were bored, filled with blood, feeling "alive" and thought "What the hell, I'll try anything once?"

Angel and Spike as we know them today would seem out of character if they did, but back then, when Angelus and William were different people who we don't know, who knows?

Jul 4, 2009 14:32:55 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

Jul 3, 2009 22:55:57 GMT -5 Nicholas said:

Im not saying there should be a limit of gay storylines and related things in Buffy or television at all, what I am saying is, if they were to have some more, I would much rather it be evenly spaced out within the rest of the series, such as Season 9.

Angel and Spike, if they boned I am definately sure that it would have been more implied than just the line "Well there was that one time...". And what makes you think they boned anyway? Just because two people are open minded doesnt mean they boned.

Dude, believe what you want. Word of God (Joss in this verse) trumps you though. It was very blatantly stated. Just because you missed the line, doesn't delete it.
Nobody's saying "open minded= the fucked". Context is your friend. Go watch the commentary for A Hole in the World. Long story short: You're wrong.

Where does Joss say that they had sex? Sorry, I'm too impatient to listen to the entire commentary.

Or was that not what you meant? You were a vauge on what he was wrong about.

Jul 4, 2009 14:32:55 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

In fact i think it might even back fire. Most of Joss's fans are already pretty openminded they definitely shouldn't be the target. I don't think a lot of them buy the comics for life-lessons or changing their world views, myself included, i buy them for entertainment and enjoyment of watching the characters evolve.

Do you want a cookie or something? Seriously, you just put about a dozen words in my mouth that I didn't even come CLOSE to saying.
Go back and try again.

1. Why would you assume he wants praise(that's what you meant by cookie, isn't it?)? Where all here to share our opinions, not get awards for them.
2. Why do you think he put words in your mouth, I thought he expressed his own thoughts.

Jul 4, 2009 17:52:12 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

And I agree with the statement that turning characters either gay/bi/experimental could backfire. There's nothing wrong with a character being bi or gay, or even experimenting, but if they start making all the main characters do it, then the writers have seriously lost their talent when it came to writing the story. It would make no sense.

How is this even remotely relevant to ANYTHING?
ONE character has come out. ONE. Buffy was never even hinted as 'switching teams' so that doesn't count.

How it is not relevant? A opinion about character's having gay experiences being posted in a discussuion about character's having gay experiences is relevant.

Funny, I've given plenty of explanation and been more than kind given your very blatant ignoring of what was actually written in my post.

Trunk, you've accused people of being stoned, and having garbage opinions.

Not to go all mod on you, but you have not been kind.

[wenxina]

Jul 5, 2009 6:51:40 GMT -5 Giant Michael said:

God, Jo Chen is good.

Interesting that Tara showed up. I can't believe more people aren't all over the fact that Georges mentioned 'Tara is probably the hardest [likeness to draw]' way back in the first Q&A Slayalive did with him.

MB x

The reason that Georges' mention of Tara didn't really send shockwaves through the fandom is because he had done a headsketch of Tara for one of our members before. Anyone who purchases a sketchbook of his gets a complimentary headsketch of their choice.
It's possible that she may make future appearances, but for now, I'm not gonna go monkey poopoo just yet.

[Skeptic]

I really wish Jo Chen were able to do the interior art. Because damn, I love it. I love the realism feel of it. The way it looks sketched, artistic, thoughtful, like a person in motion in the world physically, emotionally, mentally.

I also love the inks. I am still just a baby when it comes to comics, but I have learned how hand-in-hand inks and pencils go. You cannot just draw something and have anybody ink it. You must convey feeling, even with ink.

The muted colors really, really work well for this. Skin is pale, red is maroon, pastels paint the backdrop, greys are subtle but evoke the feeling that this is happening in a dark place. All the colors are washed out and just not quite right, further conveying that this is a dream.

[rufio]

Nicholas-- Noone said spike and angel were in love and wanted to consumate their love for eachother. We're talking about sex- just sex! And people definitely DO just walk around screwing eachother. If you don't know that you're quite out of touch with the world. Especially when it comes to MEN, sex is often just that. And of course it's only believable if Darla and Dru were involved. While that's something I could definitely see happening-all four of them going at it...I could also see Angel and Spike fighting, beating eachother down and just erupting into a rough sex kind of thing. I've said this before, Angel would be the one pinning spike to the ground and showing his dominance. or maybe that's just how i like to imagine it lol.

[Kratos]

Jul 5, 2009 18:11:22 GMT -5 rufio said:

I could also see Angel and Spike fighting, beating eachother down and just erupting into a rough sex kind of thing. I've said this before, Angel would be the one pinning spike to the ground and showing his dominance. or maybe that's just how i like to imagine it lol.

I also think this is how you like to imagine it and a whole lot of other people too . If Angelus had raped Spike, which this scenario would be, then Spike would have gotten his revenge a long time ago.
But the fact that Spike remembers rather fondly their one "intimate" time suggest that it was a good although still a one-time experience.
Vampires from the Buffyverse are rather unique, they can easily kill their sires or leave them, they are also not controlled by their sires, Spike stayed with Dru cus he loved her. And sex is not used as a vampire-dominance method, The Master didn't rape Angelus, Angelus didn't rape Spike.
The flashbacks in "The girl in question" show Spike and Angelus getting along pretty well and also suggested that the women were the ones sexually in charge, having not been allowed to have both women at the same time.

[VampSlayer]

I cant believe I just saw this!

I found the whole thing pretty funny.

The art was amazing.

And I loved seeing some old faces in the wedding scene. Sweet, The GentleMen, Clem, ect.

And(after I figured out it was Tara) I found the Tara part heart breaking. I know it's just a dream, but does Buffy really think Tara blames her? It's totally sad IMO. They even had the gun shot in her chest. D:

I loved the whole three pages! <3

[buffyfan21]

My thoughts on the issue as posted on Whedonesque:

Wow, looks like the Buffster is dreaming about some pretty strange things. No wonder she's having trouble sleeping! Loved the Spike/Angel kissage. That was priceless! And marrying skinless Warren? whoa. I don't know what girl would have married him when he was still alive...It was great seeing so many of the big bads again as well. The Gentlemen, Sweet, The Judge, Clem (although he is not a big bad), etc. And also great seeing Xander, Willow, and the Dawnster. The fact that in her dream Tara say's "I still blame you for my death" is, I think, very telling of the fact that Buffy does hold herself responsible for Tara's untimely demise. I guess that goes with the territory of being heroine and leader, feeling like everyone's life rests in your hands. I hope that in time Buffy will be able to forgive herself and let go of some of the guilt. I always wondered if Buffy blamed herself for what happened with Tara and I guess now I have my answer. The sad thing is, we know that Willow kinda blames Buffy too. All in all, this was fantastic. Made me laugh, made me cry, made me repulsed (the Warren thing). Can't wait for the rest! P.S. Hope Buffy gets some sleep eventually!

*EDIT* I didn't realize upon first reading that that was evil Willow sitting with Wilow, I thought it was Dawn, but upon closer inspection I noticed the facial expressions - Willow looks miserable, while dark Willow looks rather sinister, indeed. Perhaps this is referencing Buffy's concern that Willow will revert to her evil self. It makes sense that Buffy would be concerned/dreaming about this, especially in light of her recent conversation with Giles.

Also, the Kenny/Ratio lovechild theory rocks!

Jul 2, 2009 12:40:25 GMT -5 Skytteflickan88 said:

Anyone think it was so sad when Buffy was happy about being a bride? I think it shows that she still wants to live a normal life, or atleast marry, and that she fears that she will never find someone to be with who is normal and/or healthy for her.

Good point. I agree. I think Buffy dreaming that she is a bride is reflective of her continued longing for a normal life. Like most young women, Buffy has hopes of settling down and having a family. Despite all the good she has done for humanity, and the fact that she has strength and skill most would kill for, Buffy's life remains unfulfilled in that department. It's sad that being a kick ass super hero cannot buy her the normal life she so desperately desires. And while she has the love of her friends and family, I feel that Buffy will never be ultimately happy until she finds that which she seeks. Until she finishes baking, in other words.

Jul 1, 2009 11:14:22 GMT -5 trunkstheslayer said:

SLASHY HECK!
Also, love the cameos in the last page.
Willow and her future self, Xander, Sweet, the Judge, Clem, the Gentlemen, vampy cats, Caleb, Warren, Buffy, Tara (well yay, she was in season 8 finally), Elvis (wtf?) and what's that big thing with the carrot nose?

I really think Elvis was put in as just some random thing. Ya know, how in every dream there always seems to be something that just doesn't make sense? I think that was Elvis in Buffy's dream. Kinda like the cheese man in "Restless" (who totally should have made an appearance, btw). And speaking of Buffy's dream guests, did anybody else notice who appears to be Lurch in the very back? Also, what's up with the two fighty/boxing guys?

Also, I've noticed that everybody is debating over the Spike/Angel kissage. I really think that it was just added in for comedic purposes (i.e. Joss knew that the fans would get a laugh/kick out of some big time S/A smoochage). Don't get me wrong, it was definitely hot (and something I definitely wouldn't mind seeing again ), but I don't think it was meant for more than that and that fans are probably reading way too much into it. I mean, c'mon, it is just hilarious that Buffy would be dreaming of her two ex-lovers going to town with each other. Priceless! I could certainly see her putting herself in the middle of that action, which she has done before (Buffy as naughty nurse anyone? ). My point is, I don't think we should get bogged down in a heated debate and lose sight of the hilarity of it all. I believe it was all in good fun.

[diabeticdude202]

Just noticed. In #10 Buffy is lying down with cuts and scars all over her. She is wearing the same clothes as she is in this dream sequence of "Always Darkest". It is very cool. And, I was re-watching season 5 and watched "I was made to love you" when the robot is slowly shutting down...

It says "It's ......always...darkest....before...the..." and then dies down. Then Joyce is found dead. I think this season has something to do with Dawn that will either end up her dying, her finding out more about this key, but the term "ALWAYS DARKEST BEFORE THE DAWN" would mean s1-4, before Dawn came. So does that mean with Dawn things will get better, or worse?? I'm confused...

[Skytteflickan88]

Yep, same place as in Anywhere but here. I bet Buffy dreams about that vision a lot.

I think the title is just a way to mess with our heads. Twilight's name is probably also suppose to confuse us into thinking it's Dawn-related.

[richieshag89]

so the title is always darkest (which is the saying always darkest before dawn)
and dawn wasnt at the wedding? wasnt her maid of honor?
Something's going on with dawn or like diabeticdude said something from before dawn is dark... oz? i could believe oz was twilight i just dont know what his motive would be... so i still think xander dawn or oz is bad or all three who knows

plus spike and angel have definitely madeout before, when they both had long hair and they could run their fingers through eachothers, now i am completely straight and spike is my favorite character ever, but he definitely had some sort of sex with angel! If anyone reads true blood, Eric, who i think is the tb equivalent of spike, has admitted to having gay sex with men when he was a young vampire, not because he wanted to but because he would try anything and... Theyre not gay though theyre just vampires, do vampires even have sexual orientations? most people dont have definite sexual orientations! I dont think they were ever romantically together like in this comic but i think that there was lust between them, how could there not be? look at them!

[richieshag89]

i could see angel challenging spike's good looks or libido and spike showing angel what he's made of

[buffyfan21]

Off topic, but I just have to say I am swooning over your avatar richieshag89. I mentioned this "scene" in my post and now you have an icon of it. Pure awesomeness! **gives karma**

diabeticdude202, that's a good point you make. I hadn't thought of the title having any deeper meaning, but you could be on to something here...