Nicholas
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Post by Nicholas on Jul 2, 2009 16:25:27 GMT -5
First off to NICHOLAS- 'alot of gay stuff' in season 8? really? it's not like theirs some huge gay orgy in every issue, and one of the biggest characters (Willow) is GAY. The series has been dealing with gay stuff for years now and yea we're in season 8-buffy's grown a lot and she experimented herself with satsu-there's nothing wrong with that! If you don't want to see gay storylines go read something else. I'm sorry, but it's just insulting to say that the gay storylines should have a limit. Yes this isn't Queer as folk where its all about the gays, but just because it's prevalent doesn't mean that it's overpowering everything else going on- and there is ALOT of other stuff going on-plenty of non-gay-related stuff so enjoy all of that at least. When exactly did I say that gay storylines should have a limit? And why the HELL would I OF ALL PEOPLE be against it? My question was, has anyone else noticed how gay storylines have been a BIG part of this season. If someone who doesnt even read the season can notice it, Im sure we can too. rufio, I think you misunderstood nicholas post. Not to answer in his place, but from what I got, he said there's "a lot" of gay stuff compared to other seasons, not "too much" and that he's not against it, but he doesn't want it to be used just for the sake of it. There's nothing anti-gay in his post. THANK YOU. [quote author=rufio board=buffyseason8 thread=8132 post=141028 time=1246565319]I didn't say he was anti-gay but I don't think it's being used just for the sake of it...at all. Willow's been gay for the majority of the show and Buffy had a gay involvement this season which wasn't pointless-there was a valid story there. And that would explain her dream concerning Spike & Angel...not to mention it'd already been hinted at that there was once something shared between Spike & Angel-not that Buffy even knows about that...or does she?? [/quote] Im not saying its being used for the sake of it, if it actually is explained in future issues, then its all good. But with the line, "What the slashy heck!" and all the people out here who whine and complain that there isnt a male gay character on the show, I was just wondering if perhaps they threw that in there for the people who complain about the lack of gay male characters, or if it actually has some sort of tie to the story. If Buffy just day dreams about Spike and Angel going at it, thats one thing.
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Jul 2, 2009 16:39:33 GMT -5
I'm not even sure there's rhyme or reason behind the wedding dream. I think maybe it's a cross between standard dream stuff that makes no sense whatsoever, and stuff your brain is actually trying to rationally make sense of. And if you look at many of the people attending the wedding, there are more than a few who represent some of the crossroads Buffy's come to in her life. Something significant happened in her life with several of the attendees, or they represent something that happened.
I like how Sweet is sitting in the very back row, hanging out by himself, just looking kind of bored or unamused. Sweet's appearance in the show was a major turning point for Buffy, because it marks a time when she not only openly showed that she was unsatisfied with pretty much everything since her resurrection, but she revealed that Willow had torn her from heaven. This knowledge helps later spur Willow into deciding to abuse magic, which also marks a major turning point for Willow. After this point, both are irrevocably changed and neither can go back and undo what was done. Buffy can't be un-resurrected and Willow can't stop being a part of magic.
And although Faith wasn't in this one-shot (is it called a one-shot?), I think (hope) we'll deal with her a little more head-on later.
And semi-tangent: I'd like to know what Buffy feels about Faith, at all. Faith is one of the few people that has had earthquake-sized impact on Buffy's life, and yet there's nary a peep about her. We got Faith and Buffy fighting, again, but no damage control after. Not a solitary thought about it. Not a moment where Buffy even wishes she had someone to vent to about it. It's suddenly like Faith, who is a major player, just isn't significant. And then when we're more than ready to check in with her and Giles, their issue is like it's written by someone who has no idea who the characters are, the issues they're facing, or how they act and react to their work. I feel like we've been baited and then kinda jipped, with regards to Faith.
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rufio
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Post by rufio on Jul 2, 2009 19:32:22 GMT -5
OK you didn't say there should be a limit on the gay storylines- i'll give you that. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to come off like a defensive psycho but i'm just passionate about certain things-buffy and being gay to name a couple! lol All i really want to say is that I hate how it's a big issue if there is a gay kiss, character, storyline etc... Not enough people really understand or are comfortable with gay people and they need to be b/c theres no logical reason not to be. So it's an issue I think deserves to be explored & I applaud joss for being so brave with it. He understands it and treats it PERFECTLY-in every case. And about them possibly throwing the spangel kiss for the gay male fans-maybe they did (and it's very nice IMO lol) but it's still relevant because there is a history between spike & angel, buffy hasn't seen either of them in awhile and the gay kisses are on her mind these days
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jul 2, 2009 19:50:24 GMT -5
And about them possibly throwing the spangel kiss for the gay male fans-maybe they did (and it's very nice IMO lol) but it's still relevant because there is a history between spike & angel, buffy hasn't seen either of them in awhile and the gay kisses are on her mind these days It's a lot less relevant then Buffy sleeping with Satsu. And Spike and Angel's history of being "intimate" whatever that is, is minimal at best. The nightmare Spike and Angel weren't acting like real Spike and Angel, i'm sure there is hidden messages in the dailogue but that mostly concerning Buffy's fears of the darkness inside of her,not being loved,ect.
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rufio
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Post by rufio on Jul 2, 2009 20:02:31 GMT -5
OK so you don't think anything I said about the dream kiss is valid? ( & yes I know it's a DREAM-or NIGHTMARE in your words) and yea angel and spikes history of being 'intimate' is "minimal at best"- it was mentioned ONCE. I'd like to know exactly WHAT the little mentioned incident was! If anything it adds more depth to spike and angels character. And i don't think any of us readers really know what in this dream is really relevant and how to season 8's storyline. Joss knows best.
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jul 2, 2009 20:20:05 GMT -5
OK so you don't think anything I said about the dream kiss is valid? ( & yes I know it's a DREAM-or NIGHTMARE in your words) and yea angel and spikes history of being 'intimate' is "minimal at best"- it was mentioned ONCE. I'd like to know exactly WHAT the little mentioned incident was! If anything it adds more depth to spike and angels character. And i don't think any of us readers really know what in this dream is really relevant and how to season 8's storyline. Joss knows best. No, not really. The dream that Ethan showed her/us was one of her fantasies. This was obviously a nightmare, she was excluded from the action and was very clearly not happy with that. Why does it add more depth to either Spike or Angel. If Joss is to be believed(audio commentary) it simply happend cus both of them were vampires and were experimenting, possibly drunk. They didn't become boyfriend and boyfriend after that, they even came close to killing eachother without a second thought over the years. Which hardly makes sense for couple so "deeply" inlove. And every serious romantic intrest they had in their lives has always been female, i don't think that they've been hiding in the closet for over 100,200y. Sure you're right, we don't know what it all means. But the Spangel moments aren't really relevant to the "real" Spike or Angel, we can see what they are doing in over at IDW and making out isn't one of them .
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rufio
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Post by rufio on Jul 2, 2009 21:46:58 GMT -5
Just because they kissed or did anything remotely intimate does not mean that they are gay and have been hiding in the closet for over 100 years...I never said or implied that. This is another thing that bugs me- a girl can make out with a girl just for attention or for fun or because she's experimenting and noone will second guess her when she says shes sexually straight. But if a guy does the same thing, there's absolutely no way he's straight--or fully straight at least. It's a double standard and it's stupid. Sexuality should not have to be defined in such a concrete black and white way. I mean, look at buffy, she slept with satsu for a list of reasons and we all still accept that she's straight. If Xander slept with Andrew, a lot of people would not believe he was still straight. So yeah if that was the case with angel and spike I stand by my statement that it would add more depth to their character. I believe buffy's fling with satsu made her even more interesting and layered.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 2, 2009 22:06:25 GMT -5
I mean, look at buffy, she slept with satsu for a list of reasons and we all still accept that she's straight. I don't. **ducks flying fruits and vegetables**
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jul 2, 2009 22:11:15 GMT -5
Just because they kissed or did anything remotely intimate does not mean that they are gay and have been hiding in the closet for over 100 years...I never said or implied that. This is another thing that bugs me- a girl can make out with a girl just for attention or for fun or because she's experimenting and noone will second guess her when she says shes sexually straight. But if a guy does the same thing, there's absolutely no way he's straight--or fully straight at least. It's a double standard and it's stupid. Sexuality should not have to be defined in such a concrete black and white way. I mean, look at buffy, she slept with satsu for a list of reasons and we all still accept that she's straight. If Xander slept with Andrew, a lot of people would not believe he was still straight. So yeah if that was the case with angel and spike I stand by my statement that it would add more depth to their character. I believe buffy's fling with satsu made her even more interesting and layered. I get your point, i don't know about the double standards, haven't really payed any attention to it. I have read idiotic hate-mail from fans shouting their outrage on why Joss made Buffy gay but that was to be expected. Not everyone is liberal in the sexual sense, it's very black and white for them. Sad but true. I think the difference here is that Buffy or Xander if he were to sleep with Andrew are young and experimenting. With Spike and Angel it was implied because of their vamperic nature that they experimented. I doubt their human-counterparts William and Liam were as open minded as they were as a vampire. And i think Spike(And Angel but he was able to go a long time without sex.) loves the female body and all it's female parts too much. It also helps ofcourse that every serious love-intrest they had on the shows were all female. If they made Spike or Angel sleep with males or eachother all of the sudden it would feel very OCC, again Buffy was different she is young.
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Jul 2, 2009 23:17:54 GMT -5
I firmly believe what Joss said in the commentary "If Joss is to be believed(audio commentary) it simply happend cus both of them were vampires and were experimenting, possibly drunk." But I dont think it has anything to do with them actually going at it and liking it, considering the two are not very big fans of eachother, so I wouldnt read too deep into it. Just because they kissed or did anything remotely intimate does not mean that they are gay and have been hiding in the closet for over 100 years...I never said or implied that. This is another thing that bugs me- a girl can make out with a girl just for attention or for fun or because she's experimenting and noone will second guess her when she says shes sexually straight. But if a guy does the same thing, there's absolutely no way he's straight--or fully straight at least. It's a double standard and it's stupid. Sexuality should not have to be defined in such a concrete black and white way. I mean, look at buffy, she slept with satsu for a list of reasons and we all still accept that she's straight. If Xander slept with Andrew, a lot of people would not believe he was still straight. So yeah if that was the case with angel and spike I stand by my statement that it would add more depth to their character. I believe buffy's fling with satsu made her even more interesting and layered. Believe me, I understand what your saying, but I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not against anything gay related in the Buffyverse, even if there are more stories to tell. However, I dont want every character experimenting with someone of the same sex, because real people dont always do that. Joss believes in the sexuality spectrum, fluid sexuality. I do as well, and by that belief, not all people are going to be with someone of the same gender. However, the way Spike and Angel were set up and progressed, IMO it would be completely OUT of character for the two to have some sort of sexual relationship. Something drunk, sure, thats believeable and I wouldnt have a problem, but a relationship? NO. Sex? NO. Xander sleeping with Andrew...as much as the thought sparkles in my mind, I wouldnt approve of it for the actual story, because then its just getting out of hand with every single character doing something like that. Gay=been explored. Experimentation=Explored. We dont need another main character to turn to the same gender. I mean, look at buffy, she slept with satsu for a list of reasons and we all still accept that she's straight. I don't. **ducks flying fruits and vegetables** I personally dont think it makes Buffy more layered, just more human.
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rogue11
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Post by rogue11 on Jul 3, 2009 0:12:56 GMT -5
The sad part is that its true, there is apparently such a thing as having too much gay time in mainstream media. There should be just as many gay couples allowed in tv shows, movies, comic books, etc as there are straight couples. Its sad but sometimes I actually wonder if other people are okay with it when there is a spotlight put on gay characters. Like its apparently supposed to be all these limits. Like on the show Grey's Anatomy, the two lesbian characters had one sex scene but were wearing tops and most of the sexual aspect of their relationship was just talking about it, yet they're story was seen as raunchy compared to the str8 couples who just knock boots anywhere anytime. I commend Joss whedon on exploring sexuality!!! There is not enough gay stories out there that show gays and staight people and all kinds of people really, being able to exist within the same story and get a fair amount of attention. BTW i like how Joss thought of the whole "Spangel" idea, the fact that two very rugged and steorotypically "masculine" looking guys can get together like that is showing diversity in gay pairings, not every gay guy out there is like andrew, is who rumored to be gay. If two macho looking guys can be gay then cool, not to say Angel and Spike are but that can just be her paranoid thought, like maybe thats why it didn't work out between her and them you never know whats going through her head. Point is, as a gay guy myself, I definetly gain something from stories about gay people, especially the ones that highlight friendship like Whedon has done in the past. There could even be more focus on the gay characters than straight, that still wouldn;t change the fact that there are people all different orientations still involved with the storylines. Gay people should not have limited feature time in any context!!! Society still needs to be more comfortable with the idea of gay people and putting it out there through art and the media and any form of expression will help move society into a more progressive way of being!!!
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rufio
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Post by rufio on Jul 3, 2009 0:25:24 GMT -5
very well said rogue.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 3, 2009 8:26:45 GMT -5
I dislike the notion of "tokenizing" gays -- the idea that "we already have a gay couple, there's no need to have another one." That's one reason why I applaud Joss for giving us Buffy/Satsu (even though it probably won't take) and Angel/Spike (even though it's done mostly for laughs.)
I understand the complaint that it's not realistic for everybody to be gay or willing to experiment... but out of all the romantic/sexual relationships we've had in the Buffyverse, there have been only three definite same-sex pairings... Willow/Tara, Willow/Kennedy and Buffy/Satsu... and two others strongly implied (Willow/Saga Vasuki and Angel/Spike). That's a fairly realistic ratio, really.
My bigger worry is that all these romantic entanglements will cause the story to tilt too much away from action/adventure (especially at this point in the story) and too much toward the soap opera aspects... although Joss and his writers have deftly balanced the two before, so I trust them.
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Skeptic
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Post by Skeptic on Jul 3, 2009 13:20:19 GMT -5
A lot of people mention Buffy/Satsu as experimental. Where they get that idea, I don't know. The only things Buffy said or felt before she landed in bed with her were her feelings of lonliness, and missing sex. She took whatever Satsu offered her that night because she needed it, not because she was voicing curiosity suddenly about sleeping with women. Buffy has never been one to take sex just randomly, for the sake of sex. Even with Spike, she needed connection, passion.
I haven't put much thought into the Spangel thing, except that dreams often tell us things in an offhand way. Could be that Buffy's worried that she was never enough for either of them, or that she feels like she never understood what they really wanted. Vampires have more in common with vampires, and slayers with slayers. Makes sense that that would also extend to the bedroom. Maybe it's also her brain's strange way of telling her that.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jul 3, 2009 14:27:23 GMT -5
A lot of people mention Buffy/Satsu as experimental. Where they get that idea, I don't know. The only things Buffy said or felt before she landed in bed with her were her feelings of lonliness, and missing sex. She took whatever Satsu offered her that night because she needed it, not because she was voicing curiosity suddenly about sleeping with women. Buffy has never been one to take sex just randomly, for the sake of sex. Even with Spike, she needed connection, passion. Yep. *Karma*
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trunkstheslayer
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Post by trunkstheslayer on Jul 3, 2009 18:33:39 GMT -5
I firmly believe what Joss said in the commentary "If Joss is to be believed(audio commentary) it simply happend cus both of them were vampires and were experimenting, possibly drunk." But I dont think it has anything to do with them actually going at it and liking it, considering the two are not very big fans of eachother, so I wouldnt read too deep into it. Except that isn't what he said. At all. What he said had nothing to do with being drunk or being a vamp: He simply said they were open minded guys and that he found it ridiculous that people would think they hadn't 'been intimate' at least once in that huge span of time. They boned. Nobody's saying they fell in love. Why? Kind of goes right back to that double standard bit doesn't it? Out of character now? Sure. In the time of Angelus? Not so much, according to the brain they were birthed from. No, they're not a legit pairing. They have, however, paired off for at least some amount of 'intimate alone time' As to why men are pegged as gay/bi for male/male intimacy regardless of their protests: 1-Women's sexuality is a lot more fluid than men's typically. 2-Men, in our society, are frowned upon for being gay more than women so they have a bigger reason to hide it.
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Hallow Thorn
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Post by Hallow Thorn on Jul 3, 2009 18:43:41 GMT -5
Looks awesome, and yay..Tara! and Spike/Angel kiss ? lol :0
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
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Post by Nicholas on Jul 3, 2009 22:55:57 GMT -5
Im not saying there should be a limit of gay storylines and related things in Buffy or television at all, what I am saying is, if they were to have some more, I would much rather it be evenly spaced out within the rest of the series, such as Season 9. Angel and Spike, if they boned I am definately sure that it would have been more implied than just the line "Well there was that one time...". And what makes you think they boned anyway? Just because two people are open minded doesnt mean they boned. A lot of people mention Buffy/Satsu as experimental. Where they get that idea, I don't know. The only things Buffy said or felt before she landed in bed with her were her feelings of lonliness, and missing sex. She took whatever Satsu offered her that night because she needed it, not because she was voicing curiosity suddenly about sleeping with women. Buffy has never been one to take sex just randomly, for the sake of sex. Even with Spike, she needed connection, passion. I haven't put much thought into the Spangel thing, except that dreams often tell us things in an offhand way. Could be that Buffy's worried that she was never enough for either of them, or that she feels like she never understood what they really wanted. Vampires have more in common with vampires, and slayers with slayers. Makes sense that that would also extend to the bedroom. Maybe it's also her brain's strange way of telling her that. To me, when it comes to the whole Buffy/Satsu hookup, she was just talking about prior how she had lost that connection with her army. Wouldnt it be appropriate that she slept with Satsu because Satsu was a Slayer as well?
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rufio
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Post by rufio on Jul 4, 2009 7:45:35 GMT -5
I don't think buffy slept with satsu just because she's a slayer. Satsu genuinely felt for Buffy, and Buffy liked her back. She thought she was cool and an awesome slayer and has good fashion sense. It is interesting though how both buffy and willow have had 'relationships' with slayers at this point. and trunkstheslayer- womens sexuality is no more fluid than mens, but youre right that society makes men hide it more.
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Jul 4, 2009 7:57:00 GMT -5
Except that isn't what he said. At all. What he said had nothing to do with being drunk or being a vamp: He simply said they were open minded guys and that he found it ridiculous that people would think they hadn't 'been intimate' at least once in that huge span of time. They boned. Nobody's saying they fell in love. Pretty sure he did drop the words vampires,drunk as possible reasons. And even if he didn't, being intimate one time can have thousends of different implications. You are the one that thinks that they boned even though that was never said. No it doesn't. Even then it would be out of character. One "intimate" encounter, whatever that means, in 20y living with eachother. 1 time in 20years! It has nothing to do with gay men in our society, Spike and Angel simply aren't gay nor bi. Yes there is still lots of discrimination and hate towards gays in the world, you aren't going to change those people's minds by turning hetero-sexual male characters in comics gay all of the sudden. In fact i think it might even back fire. Most of Joss's fans are already pretty openminded they definitely shouldn't be the target. I don't think a lot of them buy the comics for life-lessons or changing their world views, myself included, i buy them for entertainment and enjoyment of watching the characters evolve.
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