Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Mar 25, 2010 12:55:11 GMT -5
I've gotta go with Henz on this one regarding Lynch making Spike fit into continuity. I think that he will be respectful to the current story while still doing his own thing with Spike. He has a responsibility to make sure that IDW's stories don't contracdict each other, unless his series takes place in an "Alternate Universe". Canon is such a huge deal to so many people, and while the post ATF Angel stories are "questionably canon" they are trying to make it fit as much as possible. Sorry but no, there are plenty of idw stories that contradict eachother. And nothing post atf is canon. That has been made perfectly clear for a long time now. No Joss Whedon involvement, no canon. It's that easy. He was involved with A:atf but after that idw was on their own and they chose to run the series into the ground. The Spike series should be given the same importance as the Angel series, not an ounce less. |
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jellymoff
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Post by jellymoff on Mar 25, 2010 14:06:18 GMT -5
I've gotta go with Henz on this one regarding Lynch making Spike fit into continuity. I think that he will be respectful to the current story while still doing his own thing with Spike. He has a responsibility to make sure that IDW's stories don't contracdict each other, unless his series takes place in an "Alternate Universe". Canon is such a huge deal to so many people, and while the post ATF Angel stories are "questionably canon" they are trying to make it fit as much as possible. Sorry but no, there are plenty of idw stories that contradict eachother. And nothing post atf is canon. That has been made perfectly clear for a long time now. No Joss Whedon involvement, no canon. It's that easy. He was involved with A:atf but after that idw was on their own and they chose to run the series into the ground. The Spike series should be given the same importance as the Angel series, not an ounce less. OK, first, I am aware that post ATF is not canon; I used the word "questionable" to leave it open for those who argue the other way. I was trying not to turn this into another canon discussion. As for the contradicting stories, I don't see it. With the current Angel run starting with ATF #1, there is a certain continunity that has been kept throughout. Finally, you are coming off a bit too argumentative for my tastes. Please be open to other's opinions and ideas. Thanks! |
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 25, 2010 16:05:31 GMT -5
Did you read my last post? I pretty much said exactly that. Yes i did and no you didn't. As i said, Spike fans have long seen the potential for Spike as the lead, it predates any comics by Brian. We only got a fifth season of Angel because of Spike(studio's deal, no Spike=no season 5.). Read it again then. I mentioned the interest in Spike before Lynch wrote anything, and said Lynch was the first to really build on the character's potential. That I once didn't see potential in a Spike spin-off is irrelevent as it didn't mean I was unaware of the interest. I've gotta go with Henz on this one regarding Lynch making Spike fit into continuity. I think that he will be respectful to the current story while still doing his own thing with Spike. He has a responsibility to make sure that IDW's stories don't contracdict each other, unless his series takes place in an "Alternate Universe". Canon is such a huge deal to so many people, and while the post ATF Angel stories are "questionably canon" they are trying to make it fit as much as possible. Sorry but no, there are plenty of idw stories that contradict eachother. And nothing post atf is canon. That has been made perfectly clear for a long time now. No Joss Whedon involvement, no canon. It's that easy. He was involved with A:atf but after that idw was on their own and they chose to run the series into the ground. The Spike series should be given the same importance as the Angel series, not an ounce less. I understand that you are fiercely defensive of Spike and all things Spike, but I don't see your reasoning at all. This on-going series Lynch is writing is just as non-canon as the current Angel story, so why would you expect it to take a shit on other people's non-canon work? As they all exist in this fragille space, the safest way forward is to stick together so that fans won't feel like they have to pick and choose from different, conflicting stories. Further more, it's not all that hard to avoid clashing and it is respectful to the other people working the same job as you. |
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Mar 25, 2010 16:05:48 GMT -5
OK, first, I am aware that post ATF is not canon; I used the word "questionable" to leave it open for those who argue the other way. I was trying not to turn this into another canon discussion. There's nothing questionable about it. It wasn't left open to argue about. Fine by me. Pre Atf stories were the same as post atf stories. Stories that were told without any involvement of Joss. And the continunity has been more then destroyed with the way Bill is trying to change the universe's laws established by the tvshows,all Joss's work,ect. Instead of ruining our characters,established universe, Bill should have started from scratch and made his own. He should realize that he's playing in someone else's playground and give it the proper respect. It has nothing to do with being open to other people's opinions. My own opinion is that it's not canon because it's a crappy story. The truth, fact is they are not canon because Joss is not involved in anyway. I don't think that this can be argued. If Joss writes a terrible role for Spike in season 8 by humiliating,destroying the character. I can be angry,dissapointed, but i cannot disregard the validity of it being canon. |
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jellymoff
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Post by jellymoff on Mar 25, 2010 17:00:49 GMT -5
OK, first, I am aware that post ATF is not canon; I used the word "questionable" to leave it open for those who argue the other way. I was trying not to turn this into another canon discussion. There's nothing questionable about it. It wasn't left open to argue about. Fine by me. Pre Atf stories were the same as post atf stories. Stories that were told without any involvement of Joss. And the continunity has been more then destroyed with the way Bill is trying to change the universe's laws established by the tvshows,all Joss's work,ect. Instead of ruining our characters,established universe, Bill should have started from scratch and made his own. He should realize that he's playing in someone else's playground and give it the proper respect. I don't agree that pre ATF and Post ATF stores are the same. When ATF started, they had no problem contradicting what happen in stories like "Old Friends". They also made sure that they did not specifiy a timeline with those stories. They could take place at any time, although it seems that "Old Friends" take place after Not Fade Away. Many of the other stories took place during Season 5. There was a new continunity in the comics that started with Angel ATF #1. The inital story in this continuity is canon, and the follow up stories build off of canon material. I have yet to see something that directly contradicts events in either ATF or in ATS, with the exception of Spike's leg dusting. Apparently there is an explaination for that though. |
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neowhobaz
Respected Watcher
"Beyond the Shadow you settle for, there's miracle illuminated"[Mo0:0]
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Post by neowhobaz on Mar 25, 2010 18:26:42 GMT -5
The leg dusting was vaguely explained. They were using magical materials to heal the lost limb, which, as a lover of canon and being open to things being canon, have to admit is a bit contradictory because in season 5, spike loses his hands, they don't dust, they get reattached and he moves on.
I think if willingham was more versed in the verse lol, small details like that would not have been missed and it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is likeothers have said, he isn't going by preestablished rules, character development, etc. the flipside to that is he hasn't outright (minus the leg dusting and but charicterization) contradicted story elements that happened in ATS, ATF, AA, or the loose issues which is good or else IDW's Angel sales would plummet.
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Post by winterdreamer on Mar 25, 2010 21:22:20 GMT -5
I always get baffled by fan communities~years ago, in my innocent and misspent youth I figured fan groups got together and discussed and shared with each other the love they had for the series/book/comic/movie they all adored.
Silly me, they spend more time complaining, having endless rounds of 'battle-ships' and declaring just about everything 'not canon'. (somewhere along the line 'its not canon!!!' has become a battle cry right up there with the iconic 'this is Sparta!') Damn but it doesn't drive me half mental!
So, sorry to sun on everyone's rainy parade, but:
I like Willingham's arc. I like the art, I like the story, I like the dialog, and yes, yes I like his Spike.
I like that Spike is getting his own series.
I like that Spike and Eddie are getting a mini-series. I like the preview for it, I like the art, I think the writeup sounds funny. I could give a bent penny if its 'canon' or not, its officially released, its not fanfic & thats enough for me.
So yeah, I'm just gonna be the mindless optimist (first time for everything) and enjoy the continued adventures of some of my most beloved characters.
oh yeah, and I like Beta George too.
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Post by Emmie on Mar 26, 2010 1:37:47 GMT -5
It's nice that Lynch will make an attempt to maintain continuity. Too bad the same cannot be said for Willingham maintaining continuity with the source of the comics and the 'verse mythos--Angel the Series and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  A Spike series is incomplete without consideration to both after all, not just his one season over on AtS. As it stands, I hope that Lynch will give the show priority over whatever wanderings off the road Willingham has been offering. |
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Post by kaleidoscope on Mar 26, 2010 3:32:24 GMT -5
It's nice that Lynch will make an attempt to maintain continuity. Too bad the same cannot be said for Willingham maintaining continuity with the source of the comics and the 'verse mythos--Angel the Series and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. A Spike series is incomplete without consideration to both after all, not just his one season over on AtS. As it stands, I hope that Lynch will give the show priority over whatever wanderings off the road Willingham has been offering. Well said. I'd also add that I would like for Bill Willingham to maintain continuity with Joss Whedon and Brian Lynch's AtF series in terms of how he writes the characters. Gunn and especially Spike only bear a passing resemblance to the characters as they were developed there. His first issue was issue 28 in a continuous series since ATF. I think characterization and relationships established there, should be respected. |
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Mar 26, 2010 6:44:40 GMT -5
I understand that you are fiercely defensive of Spike and all things Spike, but I don't see your reasoning at all. This on-going series Lynch is writing is just as non-canon as the current Angel story, so why would you expect it to take a shit on other people's non-canon work? As they all exist in this fragille space, the safest way forward is to stick together so that fans won't feel like they have to pick and choose from different, conflicting stories. Further more, it's not all that hard to avoid clashing and it is respectful to the other people working the same job as you. I care as any Angel,Xander,ect fan cares about their favorite characters being portrayed well in any given series. And i didn't argue that the upcoming Spike series was canon, i know that it isn't canon, just like anything Bill is writing now isn't canon. I don't believe that they excist in a fragile place. Asylum and Shadow puppets were able to stand on their own without any talk of canon. And doing what you propose can just as easily be counter productive for the sales. As thankfully Willingham's Angel series is going down fast, linking your new and fresh series to one that is in the process of crashing hard can equally take down your new ship with it. If however they are so presistant in linking the two series's then they should atleast wait until sales and story(doubt it on both accounts)pick up for Willingham's Angel. Ahh, you mean the same way Willingham was respectful to/about Joss's work where he totally went off on him. Accusing him of stealing his ideas and making it clear that he would make no changes to his story to make it fit with Joss's vision. Basiclly just giving Joss a big FU. Yeah that was showing respect  Brian's manifesto for the Spike series was: "To remind old fans why Spike is such an amazing character, to show new fans or non fans why Spike is such a great and amazing character.". That was basiclly it in a nutshell, i can't find the quote anymore but that was what it boiled down too. And linking it with Willingham's Spike is the worst thing one could do. Most Spike fans have even stopped buying the series. The salesnumbers were already at an all time low, i'm sure they will plummet further in the upcoming months if his terrible characterization remains. It's getting really tiresome how these comicwriters continue to underestimate the Spike character. Once more, we only got season 5 Angel because of Spike, that's how big and important he is. |
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zamolxis
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Post by zamolxis on Mar 26, 2010 7:07:14 GMT -5
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 26, 2010 7:40:40 GMT -5
I understand that you are fiercely defensive of Spike and all things Spike, but I don't see your reasoning at all. This on-going series Lynch is writing is just as non-canon as the current Angel story, so why would you expect it to take a shit on other people's non-canon work? As they all exist in this fragille space, the safest way forward is to stick together so that fans won't feel like they have to pick and choose from different, conflicting stories. Further more, it's not all that hard to avoid clashing and it is respectful to the other people working the same job as you. I care as any Angel,Xander,ect fan cares about their favorite characters being portrayed well in any given series. And i didn't argue that the upcoming Spike series was canon, i know that it isn't canon, just like anything Bill is writing now isn't canon. I don't believe that they excist in a fragile place. Asylum and Shadow puppets were able to stand on their own without any talk of canon. And doing what you propose can just as easily be counter productive for the sales. As thankfully Willingham's Angel series is going down fast, linking your new and fresh series to one that is in the process of crashing hard can equally take down your new ship with it. If however they are so presistant in linking the two series's then they should atleast wait until sales and story(doubt it on both accounts)pick up for Willingham's Angel. Ahh, you mean the same way Willingham was respectful to/about Joss's work where he totally went off on him. Accusing him of stealing his ideas and making it clear that he would make no changes to his story to make it fit with Joss's vision. Basiclly just giving Joss a big FU. Yeah that was showing respect Brian's manifesto for the Spike series was: "To remind old fans why Spike is such an amazing character, to show new fans or non fans why Spike is such a great and amazing character.". That was basiclly it in a nutshell, i can't find the quote anymore but that was what it boiled down too. And linking it with Willingham's Spike is the worst thing one could do. Most Spike fans have even stopped buying the series. The salesnumbers were already at an all time low, i'm sure they will plummet further in the upcoming months if his terrible characterization remains. It's getting really tiresome how these comicwriters continue to underestimate the Spike character. Once more, we only got season 5 Angel because of Spike, that's how big and important he is. You think Asylum would have done just as well if it wasn't unnecessarily over-written by other works? Please just explain why Lynch shouldn't do the incredibly easy job of allowing Willingham's run to fit with his Spike series, bearing in mind that the current run will likely have no major impact on the character in question. I call BS on it hurting sales, it's not like there's going to be "following the continuity of that story you may or may not have liked so deal with it" on the cover. Making the effort not to disregard what happened doesn't mean it'll be heavily referenced or even briefly mentioned ever again. How many episodes of Angel passed by with no relevence to the larger plot? It allows fans to enjoy both in the same universe if they wish. Forcing fans to choose because they don't work together will more likely dent sales. Tu quoque now is it? Willingham was an ass so Lynch should be too? Sounds like a great excuse to alienate fans by dividing writer's works into seperate camps. If you don't like Willingham's arc then fine, but why think it necessary to make them conflict so no-one could enjoy both? |
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jellymoff
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Post by jellymoff on Mar 26, 2010 8:06:20 GMT -5
The art looks pretty cool. I am a bit skeptical about this mini, but I'll pick it up regardless, especially if it is visually pleasing. |
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Mar 26, 2010 8:57:04 GMT -5
Cool thanks, a very different artstyle then any of the previous Spike series which imo is a good thing. Please just explain why Lynch shouldn't do the incredibly easy job of allowing Willingham's run to fit with his Spike series, bearing in mind that the current run will likely have no major impact on the character in question. Ah so you do admit that Spike's role is pointless in the current run. It matters because this is the main Angel series, a bad characterization in a mini series would cause no trouble. A few issues and it's over, this guy is in it for the long haul, meaning that we'll have to endure his badly written characters,story for a long time unless he changes his writing which seems very unlikely for a person with such a large ego. As people have started to point out this last year, tvseasons work very differently then comicseasons. Season8 has been going now for 3years, a tvseason of 22 episodes give us a lot more story in a much shorter span of time. And even those filler episodes serve their purpose by further establishing who/what characters are. Forcing fans to buy another (crap)series to get the whole picture even if it's stupid small references would hurt the sales. Giving the fans the choice of wanting to buy a series because it's a good story is all that matters, not on it being made to fit with other stories that might not interst you one bit. What? No, Brian should make sure that his series can speak for itself. If continuity is so important then atleast connect it to a series worth connecting to, Joss's season 8. Being that it is the only canon continuation now it serves as a two hitter. It's connected to the overal verse(buffyverse) and it's the only canon story(season8). Yes, Willingham was an ass, it should not fall to Brian to make it all fit. Willingham clearly stated his point in not wanting to have anything to do with Joss's stories. Therefore again it should not fall to Brian to be the peacekeeper and connecting both series. Because if both series(Spike and Angel's) will never contradict eachother then it means that no huge development will ever happen to Spike in the ongoing Spike series. Say Spike defeats a huge bigbad, gets a big scar on his face. He averts the apocalypse but lost a few good people fighting for him. He's depressed and stops the rest of his crew of going out and fighting. Believing that he should be the only one risking his life. He starts getting obssessed with fighting evil. Then we see him in the Angel series, oh no it's crappy 2d Spike again, the silly little comic relief that cares about nothing or no one, can't don't anything, sucks at fighting. Hates women, lacks the braincapacity to formulate a decent plan. Yeah i can definitly see how connecting the two series will work  Brian was already unaware in the beginning that Bill was using Spike. That's how Bill has worked from the start, he wants to tell his own story and not constantly be looking at what everybody else is doing. While i think his story is crappy, i do however respect his method. If you want to write a story then you should not be restrained by what others are doing. My main point is that i want there to be a huge difference between the Spike in volume 1 and the Spike in volume 5 or 10 of the ongoing series. Like any story, there is no point in telling it if there is not real development,evolution of the characters,story. If the above does not happen then it will be because of two things. 1:The character will remain the same throughout the series because Brian doesn't want to evolve the character(which contradicts his previous remarks and goals concerning the series). 2:Brian will try to always make his Spike story fit with Willingham's Angel story thus the Spike story will always be dictated by what Willingham is doing. |
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Post by wenxina on Mar 26, 2010 9:31:47 GMT -5
Just because Brian said that he will not discard what's being done in Willingham's run, doesn't mean that his Spike will be subpar. Lynch has shown that he writes Spike exceedingly well, so why doubt that now?
Just because it doesn't ignore what's been established, doesn't mean it can't stand on its own. That's just crazy talk. Good writing can stand on its own, but is grounded in continuity (that's one of the strikes against Willingham now, as I understand it, and for that, his arc hasn't been labelled "good"). For now, it seems that the official continuity includes Willingham's run, so that cannot be discarded. Why on earth would IDW strive to fracture their own storylines? What purpose would that serve? So that Spike fans can say that "their" Spike never had to endure bad penmanship? To demand that storylines contradict each other, just so that one can be written better disregards the matter of continuity entirely. And sure, you've made the argument that since these works are not canon anyway, who cares? Why bother trying to stick with continuity? "Shadow Puppets" and "Asylum" apparently stood on their own. Sure they probably did, but that doesn't mean that they disregarded canon necessarily... I've never read them, but I'm under the impression that they could be fitted in somehow. And even if they don't fit in neatly, the difference then and now is that back then, IDW wasn't telling the "official" continuation of the Angel story. They are now. And the fact remains, cohesive stories sell better. "AtF" was canon. Everything that's followed since then may not be, but they're using "AtF" as a jumping board for where the stories can go, including the SPIKE on-going.
But who's to say that Spike will remain in the main storyline of the ANGEL books anyway? Has that been established? Do we know what Willingham's plan is for the franchise, including for Spike? He's getting his own on-going spinoff. That's like Angel moving to LA. If Spike moves off the flagship title, this argument about how Spike will be written becomes moot, no? And if he doesn't move off the main series, then I'd say that the blame more than partially falls on IDW for not better organizing their storytellers. If the SPIKE on-going was already in the works when Willingham signed on, he should have been made aware that he wouldn't have much access to that character. This isn't like a conversation between Dark Horse and IDW. This is merely an intra-company communication.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
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Post by Paul on Mar 26, 2010 12:00:36 GMT -5
I asked Brian a while back what he thought about using Dez and James, due to Aftermath's unpopularity. His answer was, whether the story was popular or even any good, the characters are still part of continuity are therefore must be acknowledged and respected. I agree with this.
Brian should maintain solid continuity between the Spike and Angel titles. I would expect no less from him. Remember, this is the guy who crafted an excellent story (Become What You Are) out of a continuity error in Aftermath. If he does acknowledge any developments in the Angel title, it's safe to assume he'll do it in a way that isn't detrimental to Spike.
Acknowledging a crappy series in a good series doesn't make the good series crappy. (Did that make sense?) I like writers to be neutral and unprejudiced when it comes to continuity.
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Post by Wyndam on Mar 26, 2010 12:12:31 GMT -5
That looks pretty neat. I'll get it up on the first post in a bit. |
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Post by henzINNIT on Mar 26, 2010 16:11:56 GMT -5
Cool thanks, a very different artstyle then any of the previous Spike series which imo is a good thing. Ah so you do admit that Spike's role is pointless in the current run. It matters because this is the main Angel series, a bad characterization in a mini series would cause no trouble. A few issues and it's over, this guy is in it for the long haul, meaning that we'll have to endure his badly written characters,story for a long time unless he changes his writing which seems very unlikely for a person with such a large ego. As people have started to point out this last year, tvseasons work very differently then comicseasons. Season8 has been going now for 3years, a tvseason of 22 episodes give us a lot more story in a much shorter span of time. And even those filler episodes serve their purpose by further establishing who/what characters are. Forcing fans to buy another (crap)series to get the whole picture even if it's stupid small references would hurt the sales. Giving the fans the choice of wanting to buy a series because it's a good story is all that matters, not on it being made to fit with other stories that might not interst you one bit. What? No, Brian should make sure that his series can speak for itself. If continuity is so important then atleast connect it to a series worth connecting to, Joss's season 8. Being that it is the only canon continuation now it serves as a two hitter. It's connected to the overal verse(buffyverse) and it's the only canon story(season8). Yes, Willingham was an ass, it should not fall to Brian to make it all fit. Willingham clearly stated his point in not wanting to have anything to do with Joss's stories. Therefore again it should not fall to Brian to be the peacekeeper and connecting both series. Because if both series(Spike and Angel's) will never contradict eachother then it means that no huge development will ever happen to Spike in the ongoing Spike series. Say Spike defeats a huge bigbad, gets a big scar on his face. He averts the apocalypse but lost a few good people fighting for him. He's depressed and stops the rest of his crew of going out and fighting. Believing that he should be the only one risking his life. He starts getting obssessed with fighting evil. Then we see him in the Angel series, oh no it's crappy 2d Spike again, the silly little comic relief that cares about nothing or no one, can't don't anything, sucks at fighting. Hates women, lacks the braincapacity to formulate a decent plan. Yeah i can definitly see how connecting the two series will work Brian was already unaware in the beginning that Bill was using Spike. That's how Bill has worked from the start, he wants to tell his own story and not constantly be looking at what everybody else is doing. While i think his story is crappy, i do however respect his method. If you want to write a story then you should not be restrained by what others are doing. My main point is that i want there to be a huge difference between the Spike in volume 1 and the Spike in volume 5 or 10 of the ongoing series. Like any story, there is no point in telling it if there is not real development,evolution of the characters,story. If the above does not happen then it will be because of two things. 1:The character will remain the same throughout the series because Brian doesn't want to evolve the character(which contradicts his previous remarks and goals concerning the series). 2:Brian will try to always make his Spike story fit with Willingham's Angel story thus the Spike story will always be dictated by what Willingham is doing. FACE + PALM I'm going to let you digest what Paul and Wex have said because it's nail on the head material and not in need of repeating. I've heard that Spike isn't well captured in the current arc. There's no need for me to "admit" to that because I've never said otherwise and I have no idea. |
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Kratos
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Post by Kratos on Mar 26, 2010 17:09:58 GMT -5
FACE + PALM I'm going to let you digest what Paul and Wex have said because it's nail on the head material and not in need of repeating. I've heard that Spike isn't well captured in the current arc. There's no need for me to "admit" to that because I've never said otherwise and I have no idea. Paul and Wexina's replies i got, yours i didn't. So facepalm right back at ya. I've read Willingham's Angel issues and imo they are terrible. |
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Maggie
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Post by Maggie on Mar 26, 2010 19:03:41 GMT -5
Speaking as the odd soul who isn't all that enamored of Lynch's Spike either, the last thing in the world Lynch should do is connect his character (who at least isn't dreadful) with the lout Willingham is writing about and calling "Spike".
I've been on the fence about giving Lynch's series a try. But anything that embraces or approves of or otherwise legitimizes what Willingham is doing is NOT OK, and I won't have anything to do with it.
IDW's sales have plummeted, and given not only what IDW is doing but also the way their PtBs are explaining themselves to fan, I just hope they continue to tank. Sorry. I know it's nasty. But to me what these guys are doing with a great show and some great characters is just flat offensive.
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