Unpopular rants,opinions and confessions

[Scarygothgirl]

I disagree, I think if all the characters had the same dysfunctional background then it would have been boring. I loved Joyce being the mumsy one, especially to the other characters. One of my favourite Joyce scenes is when she's looking after Spike after he's been dumped.

[Randi Giles]

Aug 26, 2010 11:26:25 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

That's why I think they should've let Jenny Calendar live.

YES!!!!! I want Jenny back. It breaks my heart knowing that it will never happen. Stupid Angelus.

[buffyfan21]

Aug 26, 2010 12:02:46 GMT -5 Scarygothgirl said:

I disagree, I think if all the characters had the same dysfunctional background then it would have been boring. I loved Joyce being the mumsy one, especially to the other characters. One of my favourite Joyce scenes is when she's looking after Spike after he's been dumped.

I agree. I love Joyce, and the scene of her and Spike talking over hot Cocoa is one of my favorites. I love that Joyce was a mom to all the scoobies over the years.

[midwesternwatcher]

I see I touched a nerve there. I think I'll start a thread, as was suggested.

But I have one problem. Joyce was a mother-figure to all the Scoobies? Really? I just don't remember that. You'll have to give me some examples.

Was she a mother to Xander? That would be icky. Xander wanted Joyce to be the mother of his children, not himself (Restless). Besides, when did they ever talk?

Willow, Tara, Anya, Oz? Refresh my memories. Off hand, I don't remember Joyce speaking one-on-one with any of them.

Giles? That was problematical, after Band Candy. They always seemed nervous together.

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't think that they had much if any one on one time, but Joyce being there for Buffy, and acting mom-like around the gang and Buffy probably effected the scoobies, made them feel jealous and good inside at the same time. Not for Giles, since I don't think he needed one, but I think for the rest. Could be me reading too much into things, but some scenes made me feel like the scoobies were a family, and Joyce was the mom figure. Like the flashback in The Body, with Christmas dinner, everyone gathered. I don't think that was such a rare occasion by season 5.

-EDIT

Maybe you can ask a mod to make these last posts into a new thread, "split" it.

[midwesternwatcher]

I just rewatched "The Body" (which I've always felt was overrated, another unpopular opinion). I understood that Christmas dinner scene not as a flashback, but as a dream for the future in an alternate reality, like the scene where the paramedics revive Joyce, who then thanks God Buffy arrived in time.

The surrogate family works fine for Buffy. She has a surrogate father and a surrogate brother and sister to go along with her biological mother. It doesn't work for anybody else in the same way.

Suppose someone had said to Joyce, "you are a surrogate mother to Xander and Willow." What do you suppose she would've said? Don't you think she would've been surprised? Wouldn't she say something to the effect that while Willow and Xander are OK, she doesn't care about either of them in anything like the way she cares about Buffy? She never tries to keep track of what's happening with Xander or Willow, as she would if they were children of her own. Should she? What do you think?

When Xander and Willow are in distress (as when Willow loses Oz), do either of them go to Joyce for guidance or reassurance, or does anyone suggest they should? Of course not. It wouldn't be appropriate within their relationship with Joyce.

I can't resist paraphrasing what Willow said to Xander, in Season 1 when he had a crush on Buffy: we have a great mother-child relationship here, except for the caring and sharing, and anyone knowing about it.

Now, let's step into an alternate universe.

Suppose Buffy had the mother she had in the movie, with whom no one would wish to share feelings, and Jenny Calendar were alive and in a romantic relationship with Giles. She would have no natural partiality to Buffy, but she would care about the Scoobies as a team, and about Buffy, Xander and Willow as members of it. I could then imagine a truly functional surrogate family that would offer the same support to everyone.

I submit that would've made for a better story.

[Scarygothgirl]

Do we need a mother figure when we have Giles as a clear father figure?

[The Night Lord]

I liked the scene where Angelus kills Jenny. So brutal and callous. Not a huge fan of Jenny and don't really understand why everyone wants her to come back. She didn't do anything for me

[Skytteflickan88]

@ midwesternwatcher. Put like that, you're right, Joyce doesn't seem to definitly be the surrogate mother. I do think there's potential for something like that going on off screen, but so far, she's only been seen being a clear mother figure for Spike in Lover's walk.

[Billie Erin]

I never really got it with Doyle. I didn't find him as awesome as everyone else seems to/

[GLORificus]

midwesternwatcher,
Honestly, there have been numerous times where I have seen Joyce as a "maternal" figure to the Scoobies. ( Picking up dishes after Thanksgiving in "The Body", etc ) things a mother would do. Now, I'm not saying she was the go-to-gal for all problem solving, but she was awfully maternal towards the group, and what she could've seen as family.

A mother isn't someone you go to answer all of your questions, but she's always there, catch my drift? It's not about having a talk with someone, in my opinion. It's about having a source to talk to. Not always having to talk, but simply having someone there to support you is very mother-ly in my mind. I'm rambling. I don't know. I kind of disagree with your statement.

[Astray]

Aug 29, 2010 13:51:06 GMT -5 GLORificus said:

A mother isn't someone you go to answer all of your questions, but she's always there, catch my drift? It's not about having a talk with someone, in my opinion. It's about having a source to talk to. Not always having to talk, but simply having someone there to support you is very mother-ly in my mind. I'm rambling. I don't know. I kind of disagree with your statement.

I'm in total agreement. I wanted to say essentially the same thing on the Joyce topic, but I couldn't find a way of wording it. I think proof of Joyce's importance to Xander and Willow becomes pretty evident in "The Body".

[The Night Lord]

Aug 29, 2010 13:36:58 GMT -5 Billie Erin said:

I never really got it with Doyle. I didn't find him as awesome as everyone else seems to/

I agree. Once he died and Wesley came onto the show, I found it more enjoyable. I said this before, but all Doyle did was drink, have visions and crack onto Cordy

[orangejuicepony]

I thought Doyle was just an ok character. When he dies, I always feel like it should effect me more, but it doesn't. I think Doyle was a likable guy, but they replace him with Wesley who in my opinion is even more likable.

I also enjoyed Jennys death scene. I liked her as a character but any moment in a tv show that can make me feel for a character I will love, even if a character I liked has died. But I thought Angelus was just so awesome in that scene and I felt so bad for Giles. I loved it.

Anyways, I recently rewatched the 7th season and thoroughly enjoyed it. I absolutely hated it the first time through, and it seems like alot of others felt that way as well, but the second time I loved it. Maybe I lowered my expectations?

[Skytteflickan88]

I don't think Doyle was a extraordinary character compared to others Ats-characters, but his death and sacrificed made him glorious.

It's just that there are so many great characters on both shows, that a guy who drinks and gambles that we only saw for half a season didn't really have time to grow close to our hearts like the others, even tough by non-Buffyverse critiera (in comparison to real life people for example) he was special, considering that he was cute, funny and heroic.

But his death was so poignant and beautiful, and I think that made him special to so many fans, even in comparison to characters we saw more of, and that might have been "better people".

[Astray]

^Thank you! I was starting to feel bad . Heroic death? Check. Growth potential? Check. Cuteness? Check. You covered all the reasons I love him :]

[Randi Giles]

Aug 29, 2010 7:35:59 GMT -5 The Night Lord said:

I liked the scene where Angelus kills Jenny. So brutal and callous. Not a huge fan of Jenny and don't really understand why everyone wants her to come back. She didn't do anything for me

Boooooo! Jenny was a good character that had potential to be a great character. I would have loved to see her possibly be a mentor to Willow or be there for her at her breaking point. Jenny and Giles also had potential of being something great.


BTW - I do have to admit that Jenny's death scene is shockingly brutal still even when I re-watch. That damn Joss Whedon being all brilliant. I like and hate that scene at the same time.

[The Night Lord]

That's what Giles was, I guess, being a mentor and there for Willow at her breaking point (or at least, after her breaking point). I just don't see Jenny as a long-term character

[tkts]

Regarding Joyce and her role relative to the other Scoobies, she doesn't have to have been a mother figure in every single way in order to fill that role on occasion. It's likely that at the very least -- especially after she learns about Buffy being the slayer and comes a little more into the fold -- they'd view her as an adult they can trust.

We really don't see a lot of interaction between Joyce and Willow, or Joyce and Xander, without Buffy being around, so it's kind of hard to say what she meant to them. (Although the dialogue just after Joyce's death suggests that Xander might see Willow's mother as a kind of substitute for his own.)

[Scarygothgirl]

This will probably be quite unpopular:
Other than the obvious (Something Blue, Intervention), I think that each time Buffy kissed Spike, a small part of her died inside.