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Post by wenxina on Apr 25, 2009 18:27:00 GMT -5
Hey, while we're all foretelling the future here, any chance anyone may have the winning number on the next Lotto?
Would be more practical than just sitting around screaming about a cancellation that hasn't happened yet. I'm not an optimist, nor am I a pessimist. I choose to enjoy the show for its remaining two episodes (possibly 3), and if there's a renewal down the way, I'll be ecstatic . If there isn't, well, one can't blame Fox for terminating a show (pun in there somewhere) for dismal numbers. The reality is that even with DVR numbers, the show isn't quite as successful as some would like to believe, relative to the more watched shows out there.
So really, to adopt Faith's outlook, chill out. If the show has a decent shot at renewal, then it does. It seems unlikely, but keep holding on to hope. If it doesn't, really nothing to be done about it anymore. 5/6s of the way into a short season, the momentum has pretty much dwindled. Yes, maybe it's Fox's fault for putting it into the Friday death slot. Or maybe Joss does have battered wife syndrome. Or maybe us fans just have rose-tinted lenses on whenever we view a Whedon creation. The first 5 episodes while quite good were hardly that riveting. I've heard that it was due to studio interference, but again, heard it before. Nothing new there. The "I hate Fox/Stupid Fox/Not another screw-up!" lamentation has been written by cyber-bards since AtS was cancelled.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
Posts: 210
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Post by Marcos on Apr 25, 2009 18:50:52 GMT -5
Hey, while we're all foretelling the future here, any chance anyone may have the winning number on the next Lotto? Would be more practical than just sitting around screaming about a cancellation that hasn't happened yet. I'm not an optimist, nor am I a pessimist. I choose to enjoy the show for its remaining two episodes (possibly 3), and if there's a renewal down the way, I'll be ecstatic . If there isn't, well, one can't blame Fox for terminating a show (pun in there somewhere) for dismal numbers. The reality is that even with DVR numbers, the show isn't quite as successful as some would like to believe, relative to the more watched shows out there. So really, to adopt Faith's outlook, chill out. If the show has a decent shot at renewal, then it does. It seems unlikely, but keep holding on to hope. If it doesn't, really nothing to be done about it anymore. 5/6s of the way into a short season, the momentum has pretty much dwindled. Yes, maybe it's Fox's fault for putting it into the Friday death slot. Or maybe Joss does have battered wife syndrome. Or maybe us fans just have rose-tinted lenses on whenever we view a Whedon creation. The first 5 episodes while quite good were hardly that riveting. I've heard that it was due to studio interference, but again, heard it before. Nothing new there. The "I hate Fox/Stupid Fox/Not another screw-up!" lamentation has been written by cyber-bards since AtS was cancelled. Let's be honest, the real guilty on all this is America. It would really work if the mass audience was more interested in creative, complex things and not only crime dramas where everything resolves within 40 minutes and you leave it feeling "closure", which is more comfy. Yeah, Fox "made" Joss start DH like a procedural drama, but the public is not THAT stupid to watch it because Fox is saying "look, there's a case and there's a solution and it's just like CSI, watch it!".  Joss wanted a mythology show with some episodic stories on the way. Since Man on the Street, I see this sctructure is working perfectly. But I don't see the audience responding. So, in the beginning it was Fox's fault. Now, I can't say it is. My hopes are low because TV has always been the same with ratings. I didn't give up yet, but I'm ready for the C word. And I'm ABSOLUTELY ready to see Joss in more web-based content and, in my fanboy dream, see him at Sci-Fi, FX, Showtime, HBO, etc, where people like him are respected on tv, and not considered a failure (in the major networks, success = numbers). Haunted kicked ass, btw. |
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Skeptic
Initiative Soldier
[Mo0:24]
Posts: 344
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Post by Skeptic on Apr 25, 2009 21:52:56 GMT -5
Yuck - once more - Canada can't watch it online - FOX.com (  )is only for US residents!    Is Hulu blocked in Canada? |
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Apr 25, 2009 22:57:28 GMT -5
Hey, while we're all foretelling the future here, any chance anyone may have the winning number on the next Lotto? Would be more practical than just sitting around screaming about a cancellation that hasn't happened yet. I'm not an optimist, nor am I a pessimist. I choose to enjoy the show for its remaining two episodes (possibly 3), and if there's a renewal down the way, I'll be ecstatic . If there isn't, well, one can't blame Fox for terminating a show (pun in there somewhere) for dismal numbers. The reality is that even with DVR numbers, the show isn't quite as successful as some would like to believe, relative to the more watched shows out there. So really, to adopt Faith's outlook, chill out. If the show has a decent shot at renewal, then it does. It seems unlikely, but keep holding on to hope. If it doesn't, really nothing to be done about it anymore. 5/6s of the way into a short season, the momentum has pretty much dwindled. Yes, maybe it's Fox's fault for putting it into the Friday death slot. Or maybe Joss does have battered wife syndrome. Or maybe us fans just have rose-tinted lenses on whenever we view a Whedon creation. The first 5 episodes while quite good were hardly that riveting. I've heard that it was due to studio interference, but again, heard it before. Nothing new there. The "I hate Fox/Stupid Fox/Not another screw-up!" lamentation has been written by cyber-bards since AtS was cancelled. Let's be honest, the real guilty on all this is America. It would really work if the mass audience was more interested in creative, complex things and not only crime dramas where everything resolves within 40 minutes and you leave it feeling "closure", which is more comfy. Yeah, Fox "made" Joss start DH like a procedural drama, but the public is not THAT stupid to watch it because Fox is saying "look, there's a case and there's a solution and it's just like CSI, watch it!". Joss wanted a mythology show with some episodic stories on the way. Since Man on the Street, I see this sctructure is working perfectly. But I don't see the audience responding. So, in the beginning it was Fox's fault. Now, I can't say it is. My hopes are low because TV has always been the same with ratings. I didn't give up yet, but I'm ready for the C word. And I'm ABSOLUTELY ready to see Joss in more web-based content and, in my fanboy dream, see him at Sci-Fi, FX, Showtime, HBO, etc, where people like him are respected on tv, and not considered a failure (in the major networks, success = numbers). Haunted kicked ass, btw. If the public only likes "procedural dramas" that end and have a conclusion after 40 minutes how do you explain hit shows like LOST? |
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●B E N
Rogue Demon Hunter
♥ Goodness Gracious ♥
Crazy Echo[Mo0:4]
Posts: 454
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Post by ●B E N on Apr 25, 2009 23:59:53 GMT -5
I will keep my hopes up as long as the show is on the air! Darn it! This show is great! Why can't people see that?! grrrr
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Secret Scoobie
Wise-cracking Sidekick
Puts words in word places
Shiny![Mo0:32]
Posts: 2,702
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Post by Secret Scoobie on Apr 26, 2009 3:15:38 GMT -5
On DrHorrible Twitter:
EEK!!!!
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Post by wenxina on Apr 26, 2009 7:44:00 GMT -5
If the public only likes "procedural dramas" that end and have a conclusion after 40 minutes how do you explain hit shows like LOST? Besides the absurd amount of eye candy on LOST? Probably a strong launch; i.e. a really catchy pilot, something which Dollhouse didn't have (venturing a guess here since I don't watch LOST). Dollhouse is also a lot more niched that LOST, I'd argue. And was LOST ever on Friday night? |
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Post by henzINNIT on Apr 26, 2009 8:00:13 GMT -5
Nothings changed. The ratings have always been disappointing. What matters more is that the show has hit its stride of making my heart break over and over again.
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Marcos
Novice Witch
Define "human".[Mo0:30]
Posts: 210
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Post by Marcos on Apr 26, 2009 8:05:17 GMT -5
Let's be honest, the real guilty on all this is America. It would really work if the mass audience was more interested in creative, complex things and not only crime dramas where everything resolves within 40 minutes and you leave it feeling "closure", which is more comfy. Yeah, Fox "made" Joss start DH like a procedural drama, but the public is not THAT stupid to watch it because Fox is saying "look, there's a case and there's a solution and it's just like CSI, watch it!". Joss wanted a mythology show with some episodic stories on the way. Since Man on the Street, I see this sctructure is working perfectly. But I don't see the audience responding. So, in the beginning it was Fox's fault. Now, I can't say it is. My hopes are low because TV has always been the same with ratings. I didn't give up yet, but I'm ready for the C word. And I'm ABSOLUTELY ready to see Joss in more web-based content and, in my fanboy dream, see him at Sci-Fi, FX, Showtime, HBO, etc, where people like him are respected on tv, and not considered a failure (in the major networks, success = numbers). Haunted kicked ass, btw. If the public only likes "procedural dramas" that end and have a conclusion after 40 minutes how do you explain hit shows like LOST? See the top-ratings shows and see how many shows like Lost are there, and how many shows like CSI are there  it's pretty obvious what kind of show rules the ratings world. Of course complex shows can be a hit, like Lost or Heroes are/were, but it's rare. Before Lost, the only one I can think of is the X-Files (and it had a procedural feeling). And as wenxina put it, Lost's success had a lot to do with selling the pilot as a major tv event. |
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beto
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 23
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Post by beto on Apr 26, 2009 9:58:20 GMT -5
*jumps into the discussion*
Besides, Lost is the same as Friends were: you have very different characters living together, wich means different approaches to drama/comedy that viewers are bound to relate to at least one of them. I like Locke, you like Jack, she likes Sayid... and we all watch Lost. Same thing with Friends, where Monica's comedy type was a totally different thing than Chandler's or Phoebe's.
I've read some people are not watching Dollhouse because they couldn't relate to Eliza's character. True, we have Victor, Sierra and the others but Eliza is the star, so she gets more screen time. Fox meddling at the start of the show (making it more engagement-of-the-week) also didn't help - in my own private oppinion, I think they doomed the show for it, because unlike buffy, echo has no link between the engagements she faces. If they pulled this *after* the show had picked people's interest, then that would be fine (if you watch Lost, you know what I'm talking about).
I don't think the numbers are going to pick up from here. It would be like sitting down to watch a movie that's about to end (specially now, when everyone knows we're approaching either season or series finale). We're talking about a show that started on the wrong foot, viewers already got a bad first impression out of it. And the network changing things before it even started, definately didn't help the publicity ("That has to be something wrong with a show like that, right? I'm not gonna bother to stay home on a friday night to get attached to something that I still don't understand and will probably get cancelled anyway...").
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Apr 26, 2009 11:41:34 GMT -5
Besides the absurd amount of eye candy on LOST? Probably a strong launch; i.e. a really catchy pilot, something which Dollhouse didn't have (venturing a guess here since I don't watch LOST). Dollhouse is also a lot more niched that LOST, I'd argue. And was LOST ever on Friday night? As I mentioned before, LOST is the perfect example of how you can still succeed with a mythology show, if you stick to the mythology.LOST had high ratings in the beginning, when it was all about meeting the characters, putting the puzzle together, trying to figure out what the hell was going on. Good characters (and, yes, eye candy) helped too. Then the writers started trying to fill up one 22-episode season after another with irrelevant side trips (like how Jack got his tattoos) and introducing new main characters that nobody had ever seen before or cared anything about. Ratings dropped. Then they put an expiration date on the show, cut the seasons down to 17 episodes, and got back on track. Now every episode brings us closer to the Final Answers, major stuff happens to major characters, and the ratings are back up. The X-Files model doesn't work anymore. Nowadays if you have a mythology, you have to serve it every episode or people will lose interest fast. Dollhouse HAD to do those first episodes the way they did. Episodes 6+ only had the effect they did because they kicked over the status quo in surprising ways, and that couldn't have happened unless a status quo had first been established. Dollhouse was always going to be a hard sell on network TV, and an impossible sell on Friday nights. They should have tried it on FX right from the start, but then they probably couldn't have gotten the budget they wanted. |
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Skeptic
Initiative Soldier
[Mo0:24]
Posts: 344
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Post by Skeptic on Apr 26, 2009 11:56:26 GMT -5
Fox meddling at the start of the show (making it more engagement-of-the-week) also didn't help - in my own private oppinion, I think they doomed the show for it I do agree... it was just a bad way to kick off this show. To some degree I'm still surprised that Fox meddled, but I suppose when it really comes down to it, I expected it. I wanted to hope things have somehow miraculously changed overnight in Hollywood, but they haven't and won't. The bottom line is money, and the people who run the business are not artists, and are not working for the art, they are business owners and they want/need to make money. I own a musical estate and let me tell ya, it's not fun dealing with these people. They're interested in representing you and paying you because your art will bring them money. The business of creativity, that's what it is. Anyway, add the Friday night time slot to it, and the lessened advertising, and it's as if they're trying to drive it down anyway. |
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Post by Tyler Austin "tiewashere" on Apr 26, 2009 18:13:18 GMT -5
If the public only likes "procedural dramas" that end and have a conclusion after 40 minutes how do you explain hit shows like LOST? Besides the absurd amount of eye candy on LOST? Probably a strong launch; i.e. a really catchy pilot, something which Dollhouse didn't have (venturing a guess here since I don't watch LOST). Dollhouse is also a lot more niched that LOST, I'd argue. And was LOST ever on Friday night? Dollhouse has an absurd amount of eye candy too . I was just pointing out the fact that it's not the fact that some people like "dumb procedural dramas" (and thus basing Dollhouse's failure on the general public and typecasting) and therefor am completely blaming Dollhouse's failure on the FOX people and placing it in the awful timeslot.  |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 26, 2009 19:02:07 GMT -5
This isn't the point, but isn't the "main" cast of LOST about double that of Dollhouse? Meaning 2 times the hotness.
But to the point. While I'm not a fan of how Fox has handled Dollhouse (wow, pun, surprise much!), I don't think that they can solely be blamed for the show's failure. The audience plays a very large part in determining a show's success (i.e. making up the numbers). Changing trends in how people watch TV may be a factor, but as I pointed out before, the DVR and online viewings of Dollhouse while proportionally large in comparison to the Nielson numbers aren't impressive. Pardon the presumption, but just about every fan of Joss Whedon's work is aware of Dollhouse. So why the low viewership?
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 26, 2009 19:27:32 GMT -5
Joss doesn't have a huge following though. I think he compared his fans perfectly to the Spartans from 300. There must be a huge portion of Buffy and Angel's viewers that watched the shows, enjoyed them and just stopped caring when they ended, didn't matter who was involved with making the shows. I remember Kevin Reilly saying he just "hopes the Whedonists show up" on Friday nights.... what a genius plan.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 26, 2009 19:46:49 GMT -5
I guess we're a rabid and loyal fanbase then... okay E, here's your loincloth. Gird thy loins... Unless we wanna go purist, as in totally faithful to Spartan culture and Miller's graphic novel... where the Spartans were naked quite a bit. Say it with me: full-frontal. Yes, that means [whispers]penis[/whisper], and you know how America felt about one blue CGI one. Imagine 300 of us completely starkers.
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 26, 2009 20:08:10 GMT -5
Hahaha. Wow that went to a completely different place then I expected it to, way to go Xi. If it means getting Dollhouse a second season, I'm game.
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Post by wenxina on Apr 26, 2009 20:44:28 GMT -5
Hahaha. Wow that went to a completely different place then I expected it to, way to go Xi. If it means getting Dollhouse a second season, I'm game. This is why I sucked at the vacation planning job I never had. Always headed in random directions. And hey, I'm with you about being game as long as it gets the show a second season. Just not in Maine, okay? Frost bite in certain regions doesn't sound good. |
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Post by hitnrun017 on Apr 26, 2009 20:49:32 GMT -5
I'll have you know that the temp reached 80 today, so kindly shut your mouth.  |
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Post by wenxina on Apr 26, 2009 20:52:57 GMT -5
Yowza... that is naked weather just about for everyone. Anyone else game for the "300 for Dollhouse" campaign? There'll be group photo sessions! In tropical Maine! Think about it.
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