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Post by wenxina on Jan 22, 2010 9:43:49 GMT -5
If you're addressing my previous long-ass post, I'd say that math is quite central to the season right now, in that we originally had about 2000 Slayers. A bunch lost their power. Fray is the only Slayer in her time. As for approaching the story mathematically, I'd say that all I've postulated so far isn't math, as much as it's pretty standard good storytelling. There had to be a reason for sending us to the future, showing us what we saw. And then leaving it with a whole bunch of question marks in its wake. None of that requires an extensive knowledge of any backstory at all. We know that Buffy time hopped some 200+ years into the future. Then we know she killed FDW. We know that the source of Willow's returned magic is from some unknown (to her) cataclysmic event in the future. We also know that there was quite a big deal made on the whole "ripples" thing, explaining that temporal events leave their signatures in a non-linear fashion. I've not made any predictive statements as to how the rest of the season will play out. I've merely argued my current belief that the source of Willow's returned magic is from her future self, rather than the slaying of Dawn. Perhaps. Perhaps not. But going by what we have so far, it tracks quite well, and isn't labyrinthine at all.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Jan 22, 2010 10:07:43 GMT -5
Bottom line is this: if the feedback loop is from Willow's death and returned Willow's powers...there is NO WAY to change the future. Buffy's actions didn't change anything. Willow certainly doesn't know what caused her to get her powers back and doesn't know what to do with it once she got it back. She has absolutely no clue who Twilight is and if that future is fated to happen just the way it does - Twilight will prevail and magic is eliminated.
But again, this simply causes what happens to Willow to happen yet again. I told you before this is an eternal loop they're trapped in. Something would need to happen that DID NOT HAPPEN in the current time line that changes everything. Defeating Twilight may not do it because Buffy didn't see ANYTHING in the history books explaining what happened. No mention of Twilight, no Slayer army, nothing. This whole storyline is now a mess. My opinion.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 22, 2010 11:38:17 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to any one post or any one poster.
I guess Speculation Fatigue may be setting in with me a bit. This is one long-assed season, and we have a LOT of time between issues to think, and maybe over-think things.
The Twilight reveal proved to me that my speculation is pretty much pointless. His identity was one that I had dismissed completely from consideration, actually quite early in the game. To the best of my memory, I haven't been right about ANY theory I've had regarding this season yet.
I have zero idea where this story is going next.
I'm fairly confident that the Slayers MUST be killed or de-powered, and magic/demons/vampires MUST be banished from the earth. Which is almost certainly evidence that those things will not happen.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Jan 22, 2010 11:58:07 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to any one post or any one poster. I guess Speculation Fatigue may be setting in with me a bit. This is one long-assed season, and we have a LOT of time between issues to think, and maybe over-think things. The Twilight reveal proved to me that my speculation is pretty much pointless. His identity was one that I had dismissed completely from consideration, actually quite early in the game. To the best of my memory, I haven't been right about ANY theory I've had regarding this season yet. I have zero idea where this story is going next. I'm fairly confident that the Slayers MUST be killed or de-powered, and magic/demons/vampires MUST be banished from the earth. Which is almost certainly evidence that those things will not happen. Can you figure a way out of what I enumerated as the problem for the rest of the season? 1. Buffy defeating Twilight doesn't change what happens to Willow because nothing was mentioned in that future that talked about Twilight. 2. Willow's death in the future powers up present day Willow and the future STILL happens. There is no way out.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 22, 2010 11:59:00 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to any one post or any one poster. I guess Speculation Fatigue may be setting in with me a bit. This is one long-assed season, and we have a LOT of time between issues to think, and maybe over-think things. Sorry, wasn't sure if you were addressing me. And I hear you on speculation fatigue... that's why I don't play the speculation game. And perhaps why I actually laughed when Twilight's identity was spoiled for me. Not because it was ludicrous, but because it was more of the inappropriate laughter at a funeral. Also, because I knew that the shit would hit the fan... and it was my way of dealing with the drama that would ensue.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 22, 2010 12:15:47 GMT -5
Can you figure a way out of what I enumerated as the problem for the rest of the season? I can't figure a way out of any of the problems Joss has given us for the rest of the season. I assume that's because he's a way, way better writer than I am.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Jan 22, 2010 13:43:41 GMT -5
Can you figure a way out of what I enumerated as the problem for the rest of the season? I can't figure a way out of any of the problems Joss has given us for the rest of the season. I assume that's because he's a way, way better writer than I am. If you read my reasoning carefully you would have noticed something. Both options cancel each other out. So guess what? There is a way out. Since both solutions have Willow as an important ingredient that causes the problem...what do you think would solve it? Simple. You REMOVE the problem. Willow. She's in both scenarios, right? What happens if Willow is removed from both situations? The compatibility problems disappear and everything is solved. Bottom line is I believe the endgame to Season 8 is pointing to a possible Willow spin-off. This is just my opinion but my reasoning seems to fit the facts so far.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 22, 2010 17:11:01 GMT -5
Can you figure a way out of what I enumerated as the problem for the rest of the season? 1. Buffy defeating Twilight doesn't change what happens to Willow because nothing was mentioned in that future that talked about Twilight. 2. Willow's death in the future powers up present day Willow and the future STILL happens. There is no way out. Do you enjoy contradicting yourself in subsequent posts? First you claim that there's no way out. Then, in your next post, you say that there's a way out. Here's the central problem to all of this: we don't fully understand the physics of time travel in Joss' story. Meaning that you may not see a way out (or you do... it's rather unclear since both declarative statements have been made by you), because of your beliefs in how time travel should work. Time travel is a shifty topic anyway... everyone and their dog seems to have some idea of what time is, and how it works. A proposed possibility is that the Fray future is now a separate timeline. The future that Buffy saw was a possible one, one where magic went poof for the most part. One in that Twilight most likely prevailed. FDW changed that by her death... her immortality of sorts, as well as the absurd amount of power within her, as well as her less-than-human (or is it "more-than-human"?) state suggests that Willow becomes a goddess of sorts. Or something along those lines. Demi-god. Whatever. You mentioned that nothing is said about Twilight. Nothing is said about pretty much anything. There is barely any reference to anything that happened in Buffy's time. But back to my train of thought for a second. FDW's death re-empowers Willow and the girls in the present, and gives them a fighting chance. If they change the fact that Twilight wins now, then that future is averted. The thing is, time here is not so much just bendy as it is circular in a way. The past and future can exist at the same time, just as Willow's magical sojourn happened in a space that transcended time and space. Time is not linear, as we'v learned from "Anywhere but Here", "ToYL", and most recently "Turbulence". Kinda like the early Terminator franchise. Don't like the future, send someone back to the past to fix it. Kill John Connor, the machines win, apparently. Twilight wins, magic goes away, Fray's future comes into play. Again, a possibility, and in no way the definitive guide to S8. Just using the proposal of others (the alternate universe theory), and backing it up with what we know thus far.
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Post by AndrewCrossett on Jan 22, 2010 17:36:45 GMT -5
I do see some evidence that the Frayverse is an alternate timeline, not just the future. The biggest, of course, is that it remained in existence and unchanged after Buffy came back through the portal, proving that in THAT timeline, magic and demons will indeed be banished and the Slayer line interrupted.
Also, the fact that Buffy's Scythe and Fray's were able to exist simultaneously despite supposedly being the same object. We know from precedent that the same person/thing from alternate realities can come into contact without causing a paradox (Wishverse Willow and regular Willow, in Doppelgangland).
That option would enable Joss to keep Fray in continuity without having to be straitjacketed by its version of the future.
Scott did tell us that the future seen in Fray/ToYL is not immutable.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Jan 22, 2010 17:37:29 GMT -5
Can you figure a way out of what I enumerated as the problem for the rest of the season? 1. Buffy defeating Twilight doesn't change what happens to Willow because nothing was mentioned in that future that talked about Twilight. 2. Willow's death in the future powers up present day Willow and the future STILL happens. There is no way out. Do you enjoy contradicting yourself in subsequent posts? First you claim that there's no way out. Then, in your next post, you say that there's a way out. Here's the central problem to all of this: we don't fully understand the physics of time travel in Joss' story. Meaning that you may not see a way out (or you do... it's rather unclear since both declarative statements have been made by you), because of your beliefs in how time travel should work. Time travel is a shifty topic anyway... everyone and their dog seems to have some idea of what time is, and how it works. A proposed possibility is that the Fray future is now a separate timeline. The future that Buffy saw was a possible one, one where magic went poof for the most part. One in that Twilight most likely prevailed. FDW changed that by her death... her immortality of sorts, as well as the absurd amount of power within her, as well as her less-than-human (or is it "more-than-human"?) state suggests that Willow becomes a goddess of sorts. Or something along those lines. Demi-god. Whatever. You mentioned that nothing is said about Twilight. Nothing is said about pretty much anything. There is barely any reference to anything that happened in Buffy's time. But back to my train of thought for a second. FDW's death re-empowers Willow and the girls in the present, and gives them a fighting chance. If they change the fact that Twilight wins now, then that future is averted. The thing is, time here is not so much just bendy as it is circular in a way. The past and future can exist at the same time, just as Willow's magical sojourn happened in a space that transcended time and space. Time is not linear, as we'v learned from "Anywhere but Here", "ToYL", and most recently "Turbulence". Kinda like the early Terminator franchise. Don't like the future, send someone back to the past to fix it. Kill John Connor, the machines win, apparently. Twilight wins, magic goes away, Fray's future comes into play. Again, a possibility, and in no way the definitive guide to S8. Just using the proposal of others (the alternate universe theory), and backing it up with what we know thus far. I can knock this down like a house of cards in one sentence. If Fray's timeline IS the same as Buffy's...game over. I read that comment by Scott and I've been puzzling over it. However I still don't see how the timeline we saw still can't occur even if Twilight is defeated. You're also going to have to account for how Fray KNEW that Buffy was the Slayer and still claim it's an alternate future. The question of the Scythe was a clever observation but there's an answer to this...one of the Scythes might not have been the REAL thing. If Fray's Scythe was the real thing Buffy wouldn't have been able to destroy it. The Scythe is part of the Slayer's genetic makeup. It's part of them. Buffy destroyed that Scythe. It had to have been a fake.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Jan 22, 2010 18:44:55 GMT -5
You're also going to have to account for how Fray KNEW that Buffy was the Slayer and still claim it's an alternate future. The question of the Scythe was a clever observation but there's an answer to this...one of the Scythes might not have been the REAL thing. If Fray's Scythe was the real thing Buffy wouldn't have been able to destroy it. The Scythe is part of the Slayer's genetic makeup. It's part of them. Buffy destroyed that Scythe. It had to have been a fake. Uhh... she read the Watcher's Diaries and knows all about previous Slayers, including Buffy? Read Tales of the Slayers. As for the Scythe... it's never stated that it's indestructible. You just made that up. Please stop pulling random theories and speculation out of your arse and presenting them as indisputable fact.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Jan 22, 2010 18:58:48 GMT -5
You're also going to have to account for how Fray KNEW that Buffy was the Slayer and still claim it's an alternate future. The question of the Scythe was a clever observation but there's an answer to this...one of the Scythes might not have been the REAL thing. If Fray's Scythe was the real thing Buffy wouldn't have been able to destroy it. The Scythe is part of the Slayer's genetic makeup. It's part of them. Buffy destroyed that Scythe. It had to have been a fake. Uhh... she read the Watcher's Diaries and knows all about previous Slayers, including Buffy? Read Tales of the Slayers. As for the Scythe... it's never stated that it's indestructible. You just made that up. Please stop pulling random theories and speculation out of your arse and presenting them as indisputable fact. I was referring to the panel showing Buffy getting switched with the Demon and showed the Scythe as an extension of her arm. That wasn't made up and I'm sorry if I seem to be saying things that are speculation and presenting them as fact. I'll try to be more careful.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on Jan 22, 2010 19:23:05 GMT -5
Uhh... she read the Watcher's Diaries and knows all about previous Slayers, including Buffy? Read Tales of the Slayers. As for the Scythe... it's never stated that it's indestructible. You just made that up. Please stop pulling random theories and speculation out of your arse and presenting them as indisputable fact. I was referring to the panel showing Buffy getting switched with the Demon and showed the Scythe as an extension of her arm. That wasn't made up and I'm sorry if I seem to be saying things that are speculation and presenting them as fact. I'll try to be more careful. Of course you're free to speculate, we all do it. (And it's not my place to tell people what they can and can't post... I'm not a moderator.) But you've been posting A LOT of theories lately, many contradictory, and a lot of it is completely unfounded speculation and outlandish fan fiction. It's a bit... much.
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matt114
Innocent Bystander
[Mo0:0]
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Post by matt114 on Jan 22, 2010 20:37:09 GMT -5
I'm with Paul please stop posting huge posts of unproven stuff its starting to piss me off.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 22, 2010 23:15:18 GMT -5
Hey... we're all cool here, so let's not get nasty here. Don't read if you don't want to, but if you do read, and want to discuss anything constructively, then you're very welcome to make your points. Thanks. DorothyFan1: Yes, if Buffy's time and Fray's don't somehow diverge, then yes, perhaps it's game over. Perhaps. Again, the rules of time travel here aren't set in stone, and neither am I willing to believe that Joss is really going to care too much to make sure that his theory of time travel will be scientifically sound. As long as it's emotionally cathartic, and makes for a good yarn, he'll go for it.
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Post by DorothyFan1 on Jan 22, 2010 23:30:17 GMT -5
Hey... we're all cool here, so let's not get nasty here. Don't read if you don't want to, but if you do read, and want to discuss anything constructively, then you're very welcome to make your points. Thanks. DorothyFan1: Yes, if Buffy's time and Fray's don't somehow diverge, then yes, perhaps it's game over. Perhaps. Again, the rules of time travel here aren't set in stone, and neither am I willing to believe that Joss is really going to care too much to make sure that his theory of time travel will be scientifically sound. As long as it's emotionally cathartic, and makes for a good yarn, he'll go for it. The time line situation is very fluid. But there's something that's gotten my attention. Willow made the comment that her powers are coming from an event that will happen soon. How does Willow know this? Intuition may be one explanation but is it possible Willow is being fed clues by someone? I'm curious about Willow's wording about the event coming "soon". Her death is distant...very far into the future. Was Willow's comment a suggestion that her awareness of time has become different and considers human time length to be irrelevant?
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Post by wenxina on Jan 23, 2010 0:01:55 GMT -5
Willow has previously shown that her perception of time is not linear. The first instance is in "Anywhere But Here", where she tells Buffy that she doesn't know Robin, and yet greets Robin cordially, and then explaining to Buffy that they haven't met Robin yet, but they "do later on". It's also implicit in her understanding of the temporal anomaly that opened the portal that sent Buffy into the future.
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Post by zodthereaper on Jan 23, 2010 0:22:55 GMT -5
Was the variant missing the little bar that usually is on the left and bottom sides of the covers?
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The Girl In Question
Ensouled Vampire
Lumpy Space Princess
"It eats you starting with your bottom."[Mo0:33]
Posts: 1,674
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Post by The Girl In Question on Jan 23, 2010 0:35:21 GMT -5
And this is why time travel is so confusing. I usually prefer my fiction without it.
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Post by wenxina on Jan 23, 2010 0:38:10 GMT -5
Yes, they got a new guy to do the layouts of most of the editorial sections. Also, from now on, the new guy will be handling Jeanty's variant covers, doing different layouts that best suit the piece rather than the usual "L"-shape borders. Jo's covers will retain the "L"-shape borders, since they more often than not showcase her work nicely.
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