|
Post by wenxina on Apr 14, 2008 10:41:08 GMT -5
First of all, everyone has the right to their own opinion, and if the comics aren't your cup of tea, there's nothing to do about it. We all have different things we like. There are many reasons that people don't like the format as much. I agree that 13 issues now should be plenty of time to adjust, but some of these posts were made very early on. Also, there are others who have adjusted to the medium just fine, but hate the long waiting in between, which is a valid point. But at least there are no indefinite waits in between, like the Astonishing X-Men run that Joss is finishing with (soon?). But there's few thing (like 98%) of what you've written that I disagree with. ”But what made me start wondering on s.8's quality was Warren's return. Come on, every single Buffy fan would have said that that scumbag was better off dead - there was just nothing left to develop on that character!”You see, I can never see it like that. Sometimes when watching a movie or tv-show, I think, “That could have been told so much better. It could have been beautiful and dramatic, as if everything in the world is a part of God’s grand plan”. I don’t think Joss cares about was it believeable or not. Unbelievable shit happens in the buffyverse, just like in the real world. Not to say that Joss doesn’t like his drama, but he doesn't seem to write for you to sau ahh, and ohh. I don't really have an issue with Warren's return. The slip-up with the whole death situation was a minor issue in my opinion, the story was what I was interested in. I agree that it wasn't the most inspired, but I think it was surprising, and interesting that Amy hooked up with the chauvinistic a-hole. What I don't really care for is the fact that I've not heard any reference of Bonnie and Clyde in a while now, and I'm curious as to how they tie into the whole Twilight business. They may not be fully in on the plan, but they were dealing with the military that is partially (if not wholly) affiliated with Twilight, so that's something I want to see addressed soon. “Not to mention the far-fetched killing of Ethan Rayne and the involvement of that army. It just sounds WAAAAY troo much like Iniative 2.0”I was sooo happy that he finally got killed. Karma, you’re the best! At first I was a little disapointed tough, about the military, because been there done that, although in a smaller scale. But doesn’t it make sense? All of a sudden there’s an army of slayers. And what are we humans known for? Killing what we don’t understand. We killed the jews, burned witches, the crusades, the muslim jihad. Of course someone(although I did expect the demonworld to do it) had to think “They’re powerful, they must be the root of all evil, kill, kill, kill”. The muslim jihad you mention is a misinterpretation of the word "jihad" by both the west and the crazies. It does NOT intrinsically mean "holy war". It just means to overcome an obstacle, in as close a translation as I can recall. But minor point. Let's not forget that Ethan Rayne was also taken away by the military in "A New Man"... so it's completely plausible that he was in that storyline. As for Initiative part deux, I can stomach it. Part of me feels that Joss was mildly disappointed with the version of the Initiative that made it onto screen, and probably tried to best it here. What I do like is that we have two armies here: the US military (or part of it) and the slayer army, and the potential for using them as foils for each other. Is Buffy really that different from General Voll? Probably fodder for another thread, which I'm sure exists somewhere. “It's just a big, fat and overexposed commercial juggernaut to bring back the franchise (and it worked - we had Angel s.6 whithin 6 months from LWH), its just an operation of self-promotion, which has all its power in the nostalgia of Buffy's good ol' times on tv.”I had no idea that you could read minds. Tell me, what else did you get out of Whedon’s head? Or did he tell you in person that it’s not about the story, it’s about the money? It could be, of course, but let’s not jump to conclusions. You just said in your opening that everyone's entitled to their opinion. Just as you are. But bashing someone down that way is contradictory to your statement. I will partially agree with you though, but I feel that there has been some degree of "cashing in" involved. For one, many of the readers were not comic book readers before this. It's the legacy of the show that drew them in. So I'll give whoever made that point that. However, so is just about anything. I disagree however that it is merely just that. We're getting an official continuation to what happened after the world changed. Some elements will feel different, but that's the point... the world changed. We now have nearly 2000 slayers discovered (who knows how many more undiscovered). In that, I think the first lines of S8 sum it up the best. I also thought it was self-referential, commenting on its change of format. “The stories are just pointless, the keep on putting way too much stuff in each issue, questions, returns, deaths and everything!”The only have a few pages, they can’t fit all the details and they have to hurry. Besides, who likes predictable? The show hasn't been predictable since... ever. Density of material isn't necessarily a bad thing. For one, it warrants multiple rereads. I've heard that some people get confused as to what's happening at times; I've never had that problem so far. IMO, it's actually a rather well-written book all the time. Some people complain that there isn't enough. But as to pointless, see my comments above. Pointless would have been for Buffy to continue the life she led in Cleveland, on another Hellmouth. It would have been the same stories as Sunnydale, with warmer clothes. “Why couldn't they just lay back and write fan-pleasing storylines, with a neat start, middle and ending, packed with old character returning, like After The Fall is doing? That miniseries is 10 times better than Buffy.”OMG! Have you seen Buffy? It’s not a feel-good-show! It’s a show about comedy, heartacke, loss, death, love and other everyday-stuff. How could you expect the comics to be any different? He’s giving us a world, not a fairytale. What's the point of not breaking new ground from the moment you hit it? S1 was groundbreaking in that it had an obvious "victim" of just about any crime against the female sex, and allowed her to save her own shapely bottom. Often with quips and banter that fire faster than her punches (the action was really slow in S1). If you want fan masturbation, I would suggest fanfiction. Very comforting. I'm not bashing, I'm merely suggesting a very viable avenue for some cold comfort. "Going back to my "S.8 is a ripoff" theory, Buffy/Satsu doing the nasty-nasty is just another proof that the comic has never, is and never will go nowhere. Just keep on cashing in thanks to the hype, the shocking storylines and the commercial manoeuvres that will keep the comic high on sales ranks."Once again, have you read Joss’ mind? How do you know that he’s about the money, not the art? While the way the issue was handled was almost certainly to maximize the cashing in, I don't think the writing was. But who can blame Dark Horse for wanting to make more out of their topseller? People pimp out their wares all the time... why blame only them? As for Buffy's HGOGA... you know, go back, read the issues again, and see if there were any/lack of signs that led to the "moment". In retrospect, there was hardly any inkling that Willow would turn gay either. Sexually-open Vampire Willow doesn't really count, and Willow's initial reaction to it was not all that positive: she was a little weirded out. Compare that scene to when she says the same thing, almost verbatim to Dawn in Tabula Rasa. It was a lot less strange to her, even when she had no memory of Tara. When Tara was introduced, most people probably missed her, but that was the point, she was the quiet girl in the corner. While the moment wasn't spelled out for you, I can play hangman well enough to make the connections. For one, Buffy didn't freak out when she learnt it was Satsu. I mean... "Hmmm... cinnamon" isn't tantamount to a "EEEK!" moment. She handled the private moment with Satsu very sensitively in #11 (sans kicking her into the vamps). Mine's possibly longer, but only at the end.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Apr 14, 2008 10:57:58 GMT -5
Well done, Wenxina. Your novel-esque rant brings shame to all one-liner posters. Take a bow, my friend.
*blesses*
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Apr 14, 2008 11:12:17 GMT -5
In all fairness, the bulk of it consisted of quotes. But I felt it was better to respond in sections and be as specific as possible in each instance. Meh... I should be doing other things. Key word being "should".
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Apr 14, 2008 11:20:56 GMT -5
Valid points Wenxina. My bad with the jihad-thing. I went with the general-translation.
But i felt that i had to anwer this;
“You just said in your opening that everyone's entitled to their opinion. Just as you are. But bashing someone down that way is contradictory to your statement.”
I was harsh. And I stand by it. I really don’t like it when people think that they know what Joss thinks, and if it takes sarcasm to make them feel the burn, I’ll do it, although it's immature. I don’t think I’m contradictory, I accept that they have their opinions, but I'll still be a bitch from time to time.
Btw, I should probably have written that I quoted Pablo, from the first post. i'll modify that. I didn't read the other posts, because I'm lazy.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Apr 14, 2008 11:40:21 GMT -5
Fair enough. I will point out that I did agree with you on that part, but I feel there is an additional dimension to it.
|
|
angelmonster
Potential Slayer
Tuesday's Son[Mo0:6]
Posts: 107
|
Post by angelmonster on Apr 14, 2008 11:59:33 GMT -5
I don't think he, or the Buffyverse for that matter, has lost it. It has evolved a lot over the years into more then just a television show about a Vampire Slayer, the show is really about Buffy's life and her being a Slayer is just part of it. It has also changed alot because it was brought into comic form. It think that is why they have Willow flying and using magic so much and brought back Warren, just because they can do it and not have to pay the actors/pay to get the cg done lol.
To make it more Buffy-esque they need to tone down the Supernatural a bit. Don't have Willow fly/teleport everywhere or so easily shoot beams out of her hands. Don't have Buffy and the slayerettes jump from roof top to roof top like Spider Man, etc. I think just doing that will improve the comic a lot and bring it back to what Buffy was in the tv series.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Apr 14, 2008 12:03:38 GMT -5
Try not to over criticize and just be happy we get new material. I think I can be overly critical because I have so much time to think about the issues between each release. For me, its 30 minutes of reading the issue than hours of discussing it - I get to stretch out the fun through speculation and criticism. I'm really not trying to bash anything...if I really didn't like it i wouldn't enjoy talking about it so much! I'm a lover not a hater baby I personally find a well-reasoned/argued critique better anytime than mindless gushing. I find that it usually leads to a more interesting conversation, which at times can be illuminating. Plus, it takes a lot more effort to construct a critique than to scream "OMG, I LUVViT! SO GOOD! BEST ISSUE EVA!" This usually strikes me as just needing to exclaim, which is good and all, but I learn nothing from it (other than your exuberant state of mind). EDIT: Critiques can be positive/negative/both, at least in my book.
|
|
|
Post by VampSlayer on Apr 14, 2008 14:57:34 GMT -5
I I agree with everything that everyone has mostly posted. I think briging back Warren was...unexpected. It seemed tricky to bring him back, but I think Joss worked around it okay. I'm happy they brought Amy back. I do NOT like the whole Buffy/Satsu thing happening, I think it was a bad choice that Joss did that wqith Buffy. I do like season eight so far, and I am happy trhat they mixed it up by bringing Fray into it.
|
|
ded1
Rogue Demon Hunter
The Zombie Lord
BRAINS!!![Mo0:8]
Posts: 468
|
Post by ded1 on Apr 14, 2008 18:23:49 GMT -5
As I really wasn't a fan of season 7,my initial reaction when hearing that season 8 was coming out was "so what".Closer to the release,however,my curiosity got the better of me and decided that I would check out the first few issues[with a healthy amount of skepticism]. Now,I am enjoying the comics alot.So far,I really can't find much to complain about. I'd say the only real complaint is the span of time between issues,but I have been known to be impatient sometimes so it's more my problem than theirs
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Apr 16, 2008 6:55:34 GMT -5
In regards to whether or not Joss "lost it", I think he still nails character as good as ever.
He lost it as a Buffy storyteller back in season 7 however. Stories were always his weakness.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Apr 16, 2008 9:41:55 GMT -5
In regards to whether or not Joss "lost it", I think he still nails character as good as ever. He lost it as a Buffy storyteller back in season 7 however. Stories were always his weakness. 'Splainy, please? I see your opinion, but I want to understand it. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Apr 16, 2008 9:54:27 GMT -5
Well he is a character based writer, which is great. I think it's what makes his materiial remain lovable as it ages. His plotting is his weakest aspect as writer in my opinion. He treats events as a catalyst for character development only, which you can't really fault; but sometimes the plots are lazy and not well thought through. It's what happens if you treat plot as a secondary, and the writers' ideology resembles that. I honestly think with Buffy he tapped most of the stories he could think of, and by season 7 the lack of ideas starts to show. Season 8 is probably better thought through, as he's had much more time to think about it, but I still think it is poor compared to the show, in it's prime. I think Angel and Firefly and probably Dollhouse didn't and won't suffer where Buffy did as they all have that looming villainery presence that is often used to throw the characters out of wack and into... intrestingsville.
|
|
Rachster
Bad Ass Wicca
♥Koala Girl♥
Rachster previousily know as buffyfanforever. :][Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,344
|
Post by Rachster on Apr 16, 2008 10:22:55 GMT -5
Erm, I think Joss is one of the greatest storytellers of all time. second that
|
|
|
Post by henzINNIT on Apr 16, 2008 10:33:34 GMT -5
Erm, I think Joss is one of the greatest storytellers of all time. Have another gold star. Take George Lucas' Vision, Joss Whedon's Characters, and the Wachowski's Philosophy, or something to that effect; and you've got the greatest for me.
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Apr 16, 2008 14:15:13 GMT -5
Well he is a character based writer, which is great. I think it's what makes his materiial remain lovable as it ages. His plotting is his weakest aspect as writer in my opinion. He treats events as a catalyst for character development only, which you can't really fault; but sometimes the plots are lazy and not well thought through. It's what happens if you treat plot as a secondary, and the writers' ideology resembles that. I honestly think with Buffy he tapped most of the stories he could think of, and by season 7 the lack of ideas starts to show. Season 8 is probably better thought through, as he's had much more time to think about it, but I still think it is poor compared to the show, in it's prime. You know, I mentioned something like this on Whedonesque.com before, and of course got slapped with the heresy card by someone. I completely agree that his strength lies in his characters, and that his plot is almost secondary in that the physical action is usually just to push the inner tensions along. Emmie and I had a discussion a while ago about the weakness of the Beljoxa's Eye deal in S7, about how the First only struck in S7 because the slayer line had become unstable, and we were throwing ideas back and forth about when the line became disrupted. I don't think we came out with anything conclusive, but I was further convinced that Joss doesn't always think his plot devices all the way through, just enough to validate that they will move the characters along. I mean, the issue of mind alteration was brought up by KingofCretins over at Whedonesque as well, about when it could be considered humorous, and when it was just bad, and really, IMO, it just boiled down to what the final result would be. Mind rape is mind rape, and whether Dracula, Willow or Warren does it doesn't matter; it was the product of that action that was considered important. So I agree with you there. HOWEVER, I do think that S8 has the ability to surpass the "best of" Buffy, depending on what you consider the show at its "prime". I thought that the "definition" of what a Slayer was had become kind of stagnant and stale by the end of S5, but S6 and 7 brought new meaning to what that title meant. Some of it subtle, some of it wham-you-in-the-face. S8 is a pretty good extension of that half-smile on the edge of the crater IMO. I'm interested in seeing how/where this goes. Again, I say that it has the ability to surpass the better seasons of Buffy; whether or not that's proven true will be seen over the next couple of years or so.
|
|
|
Post by Emmie on Apr 16, 2008 21:15:08 GMT -5
Take George Lucas' Vision, Joss Whedon's Characters, and the Wachowski's Philosophy, or something to that effect; and you've got the greatest for me. For me, I love Joss' work for more than just his characters. -Yes, the longterm character development is one of my favorite aspects of his work. And his ability to make his characters so utterly real, relatable and deep. -His writing and fluidity of language is just awesome. I've always looked at language as an evolving and everchanging artform that transforms with each generation, so his wordplay is wonderful to me. -Plus the depth of themes and meaning found in his works. -The emotional depth of moments he creates on screen. -His humor. And I'm sure there are more reasons that I can't think of now. Dear Joss, how I love thee, let me count the ways... He is my favorite storyteller, too.
|
|
El Diablo Robotico
Ensouled Vampire
Robo Pimp-Daddy
"Surely you have heard about our great victory over the Devil's Robot."[Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,199
|
Post by El Diablo Robotico on Apr 16, 2008 22:10:24 GMT -5
Well he is a character based writer, which is great. I think it's what makes his materiial remain lovable as it ages. His plotting is his weakest aspect as writer in my opinion. He treats events as a catalyst for character development only, which you can't really fault; but sometimes the plots are lazy and not well thought through. It's what happens if you treat plot as a secondary, and the writers' ideology resembles that. I honestly think with Buffy he tapped most of the stories he could think of, and by season 7 the lack of ideas starts to show. Season 8 is probably better thought through, as he's had much more time to think about it, but I still think it is poor compared to the show, in it's prime. You know, I mentioned something like this on Whedonesque.com before, and of course got slapped with the heresy card by someone. I completely agree that his strength lies in his characters, and that his plot is almost secondary in that the physical action is usually just to push the inner tensions along. Emmie and I had a discussion a while ago about the weakness of the Beljoxa's Eye deal in S7, about how the First only struck in S7 because the slayer line had become unstable, and we were throwing ideas back and forth about when the line became disrupted. I don't think we came out with anything conclusive, but I was further convinced that Joss doesn't always think his plot devices all the way through, just enough to validate that they will move the characters along. I mean, the issue of mind alteration was brought up by KingofCretins over at Whedonesque as well, about when it could be considered humorous, and when it was just bad, and really, IMO, it just boiled down to what the final result would be. Mind rape is mind rape, and whether Dracula, Willow or Warren does it doesn't matter; it was the product of that action that was considered important. So I agree with you there. I think you're both right about that. Joss has always been a storyteller who was at his best with characters and emotions, and never let a potential plot hole--where you might step back and say, "What a minute, that doesn't make much sense"--stand in the way of the character-based story he wanted to tell. And it works for him. I know that for myself, as a viewer/reader, I'll let him slide with plots that don't necessarily make cohesive sense all the way thru, because he does such a good job creating wonderful characters and telling believable tales about them. The thing about Beljoxa's Eye, tho... I almost think it's unfair to criticize him for anything about S7 (or S4 of "Angel"), except to say that both seasons ("Buffy", especially) really validate Mikey's point about him spreading himself too thin, and the quality of his work suffering because of it. Not only did S7 of "Buffy" not have a tight, sensible storyline, beginning to end, but this was even more noticeable than normal, because with Joss busy with "Firefly", the strong character-based stories we'd gotten so used to really fell by the wayside, and the season became so heavy with the mythos of the First and what it's plan/s was/were. It's a little hard to judge, because we're still relatively early in the season (and I'm still getting used to the comic format), but it seems like the train has been put back on the tracks so far in S8, and that the focus is being put back on the characters first, and the evil plots second...
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Apr 17, 2008 12:09:38 GMT -5
I think you're both right about that. Joss has always been a storyteller who was at his best with characters and emotions, and never let a potential plot hole--where you might step back and say, "What a minute, that doesn't make much sense"--stand in the way of the character-based story he wanted to tell. And it works for him. I know that for myself, as a viewer/reader, I'll let him slide with plots that don't necessarily make cohesive sense all the way thru, because he does such a good job creating wonderful characters and telling believable tales about them. The thing about Beljoxa's Eye, tho... I almost think it's unfair to criticize him for anything about S7 (or S4 of "Angel"), except to say that both seasons ("Buffy", especially) really validate Mikey's point about him spreading himself too thin, and the quality of his work suffering because of it. Not only did S7 of "Buffy" not have a tight, sensible storyline, beginning to end, but this was even more noticeable than normal, because with Joss busy with "Firefly", the strong character-based stories we'd gotten so used to really fell by the wayside, and the season became so heavy with the mythos of the First and what it's plan/s was/were. I agree completely with your statement about Joss not letting the occasional plothole stand in the way of a good character arc. Which is why even though S7 is considered by many to be one of the weaker seasons, I still liked it. I actually enjoyed some of the exploration done in that season. Granted some of the character development was sacrificed, but in retrospect, it works because it's another part of the Buffy mythos. The Beljoxa's Eye deal is nitpicky, but when you consider when the First actually manifested in the show, there's no way you could argue with 100% certainty that when it said that the slayer line had recently become unstable, that it referred to Buffy's S6 resurrection. Could be that it happened when Xander CPR-ed her back to life. I love the show, but there was never a season that didn't have gaping plotholes, or inconsistencies that were explained away conveniently. Which is why I don't have a particular favorite season. It's the story as a whole that appeals to me.
|
|
Whedon Fan
Ensouled Vampire
Joss Is Boss
Banner & Avatar Made By CBG[Mo0:3][Mo0:3]
Posts: 1,312
|
Post by Whedon Fan on Apr 18, 2008 20:55:42 GMT -5
Joss is a genius but he does need to limit what he does. Comics, films, scripts, Tv shows. Choose one or two things and stick to it and then if you have time do the others. He seems to do too much at once. Also his ideas and characters are amazing but I think some of them belong on TV or film, so I believe are to good for a comic. Although Fray worked out very nicley but I would have preffered it on TV or a film same goes for The Long Way Hom, No Future For You, Wolves At The Gate and no soon Time Of Your Life. I like comics but I love TV.
|
|