Alternatives to Kennedy

[Skytteflickan88]

Oct 20, 2010 16:14:26 GMT -5 jtmaster13 said:

The whole Kennedy/Willow relationship came out of nowhere though, that's what cracks me up. I mean if you look at the beginning when Kennedy first came in, you could tell Kennedy was obviously into Willow. However, Willow did not seem interested in Kennedy at all. She wasn't even on the radar! How in one episode they are together is so mind boggling to me. It wasn't gradual like any of Willow's past relationships, it was just bang/boom they're dating.

But is that so unusual? Willow didn't want to date, but Kennedy pushed and then she let herself open her heart, and she discovered that she liked Kennedy.

It's not like Willow said "I love you" after the first date. They seemed to take their time.

To be honest, I didn't see Willow have that many romantic feelings towards Kennedy at all. No puppy dogs eyes like with Tara. Now in season 8, I think I see it though.

So they didn't move that fast, did they? I'll have to re-watch season 7 to tell for sure.

Oct 20, 2010 16:15:43 GMT -5 astranger said:

I don't think that Kennedy was nice to Willow at all. Several times she even outright verbally attacks her.

eg: “(turns and snaps at Willow) Why are you always standing up for her?” from Get it Done.

I also don't see how Kennedy was a good listener. TKIM basically consisted of Willow saying no while she prattled on.

We do see Kennedy speaking her mind with Willow as well as the other, but she listened to and supported Willow a lot. Don't you remember those scenes? of the top of my head, there's when Willow's talks about what evil tastes like and when Kennedy says the kite strings stuff.

I also disagree strongly with the notion that Willow has grown. Clearly she hasn't. She's still utterly traumatized up until TKIM when Tara is basically forgotten. Even to the end of the series she's still very nervous of doing magic and has retreated back to the shy Willow of earlier seasons.

I see it like this.

Beginning of season 7:
Willow's shy, feels guilty all the time and rarely smiles. Even makes herself disapear.

End of season 7:
Stands up straight, is still in I'm-a-bad-person mood but not as much and dares to do magic again. And she owes it partly to Kennedy, who made her feel better about herself and made her smile.

[astranger]

We do see Kennedy speaking her mind with Willow as well as the other, but she listened to and supported Willow a lot. Don't you remember those scenes? of the top of my head, there's when Willow's talks about what evil tastes like and when Kennedy says the kite strings stuff.

Kennedy may talk a lot but she never says anything. Seriously, when does she ever contribute something useful to the debate? The kite string stuff didn't really have any meaning or depth to it. There are other places where Kennedy is just rude, to Buffy, Willow and the other potentials. I wrote a large scale piece on this, which I might post later (but its like 2500 words long so I'm somewhat reluctant to do so).

“(turns and snaps at Willow) Why are you always standing up for her?” from Get it Done.

Remember this. Highlighted for emphasis. Clearly Kennedy has a problem with Willow supporting her best friend of seven years. A few minor incidents do not excuse the other nasty things Kennedy does.

I see it like this.

Beginning of season 7:
Willow's shy, feels guilty all the time and rarely smiles. Even makes herself disapear.

End of season 7:
Stands up straight, is still in I'm-a-bad-person mood but not as much and dares to do magic again. And she owes it partly to Kennedy, who made her feel better about herself and made her smile.

But for me Willow was a wreck up until that final spell, and I think that Buffy's confidence and support had more to do with her success than Kennedy did.

[-'Goldilocks]

I didnt like Kennedy because of her personality. I think that Willow needed a friend in this season that she could of related to, instead of a new partner. I, personally, think that Kennedy should have been more of what Willow could become if she explored herself and found her self a bit more. Done a bit of soul searching. Kennedy should have been a friend to help and guide her but also someone she could have fun with but without a sexual relationship forming.

I like that Kennedy had some courage and she wasnt afraid to stand up for herself but the sarcasm and rudeness was just silly and made the Willow/Kennedy relationship not as believable because I dont think that Willow would go for those personality traits in a potential (see what I did there =]) girlfriend/boyfriend.

[wenxina]

Oct 20, 2010 16:14:26 GMT -5 jtmaster13 said:

The whole Kennedy/Willow relationship came out of nowhere though, that's what cracks me up. I mean if you look at the beginning when Kennedy first came in, you could tell Kennedy was obviously into Willow. However, Willow did not seem interested in Kennedy at all. She wasn't even on the radar! How in one episode they are together is so mind boggling to me. It wasn't gradual like any of Willow's past relationships, it was just bang/boom they're dating.

Well, don't most attractions happen out of the blue? Kennedy was always attracted to Willow. And Willow wasn't not interested, she was just thrown off by it. Especially when Kennedy said that she better "not hog the covers", or something to that effect. Willow had never been pursued quite like that before. It was new to her. But it wasn't because she didn't like it, or didn't know that it was happening. And the attraction was reciprocal enough for Buffy to be teasing Willow about bringing tea to Kennedy when she was supposedly sick.

As for bang-boom, moving on... the same could kinda be said about Tara. Oz was supposed to be her great love at that point, and he just left her. She was heartbroken, and then she moved on... within the same season.

Moving on is part of the healing process. Willow moving onto Kennedy was part of her healing process, just as moving on to Tara was part of her healing from the heartbreak that Oz caused. Up until "TKIM", she was still holding on to the past. That's what triggered her transformation into Warren; the guilt of letting go, just for a second. But quite frankly, that kind of guilt is self-imposed. Her lover was killed. She went off the deep end. S7 was just as much about Willow coming back, literally and figuratively. Her re-developing trust with the Scoobies, her learning to trust herself again, and yes, opening up to a new person.

And someone said something about not liking the fact that a undeveloped character got together with an established one. For that matter, Tara was equally undeveloped when you first see the romance between the two, which was before "New Moon Rising". And Tara pretty much stayed undeveloped, and was pretty much bland for the rest of S4. She showed some spine in S5, but really only became a character I respected in S6, when she had the strength to walk away from a toxic relationship.

I'm not a huge fan of Kennedy, but I've never hated her. She was one of the, if not the oldest Potential in the house. She had been trained since before puberty (she comments about knowing how to use a crossbow since she was 8, or something absurdly young like that). And she was also one of the only girls who never acted like a scared ninny whenever stuff went down. When they were attacked by the ubervamps in the sewers, after Faith was injured, it was Kennedy who rallied the rest of the Potentials. When one of the girls was savagely mauled by the ubervamps, it was Kennedy who jumped into action. Solo. So yeah, she's a warrior, but that's not all that she's good for. More below. And while she may have been part of the ungrateful brigade, the Scoobies were right there with her. Kennedy and the rest of the Potentials had plenty to be afraid of. They came to the Slayer seeking refuge. The Slayer cannot protect them from everything, and dropped them into battle. When you're not superpowered, it's a pretty scary sitch. Heck, it's scary even when you're the Slayer. Kennedy was loud, brash, and questioned orders that didn't make sense. Buffy did those very things to Giles, and by extension, the Watchers' Council. She defied protocol, and when rules didn't make sense, she broke them.
The one thing that Kennedy doesn't seem to get credit for is how open she is. She's totally into Willow, and doesn't hold back. She's honest about how she feels. And she's not afraid to say that she's sorry when she's wrong. Case in point when she immediately apologizes to Buffy after she makes the off-the-cuff comment about Caleb's ability to "render a Slayer useless with one punch".

I get that people were annoyed that she was standing up to Buffy, but Buffy wasn't making a lot of good decisions at many points in S7. And to be honest, a lot of what Kennedy and the rest questioned her on were legitimate points. Yeah, Buffy turned out right, but she went about the whole first attack wrong. She knew nothing about Caleb, and endangered her entire squad by taking the fight to him. Yes, Caleb was guarding the Scythe, but running into battle ill-prepared borders on pretty damn reckless, and just a tad dumb.

And really, if I had to choose between Kennedy or Tara (that seems to be the dichotomy going on here), I'd go with Kennedy. Tara was pretty much dull as a rock for the most part, and the fact that she was "sweet", "kind", "understanding", etc kinda reinforces that. I guess I prefer my women stronger and more assertive, and less passive or submissive. I don't get why Willow got to be the "Amazon", and Tara merely the woman behind the Amazon. That's not to say I hate Tara. I just don't like her to the degree that others seem to do. But I definitely don't think that Twillow is the gold standard of relationships, or Tara the perfect girlfriend.

[Skytteflickan88]

Oct 20, 2010 17:01:41 GMT -5 astranger said:

We do see Kennedy speaking her mind with Willow as well as the other, but she listened to and supported Willow a lot. Don't you remember those scenes? of the top of my head, there's when Willow's talks about what evil tastes like and when Kennedy says the kite strings stuff.

Kennedy may talk a lot but she never says anything. Seriously, when does she ever contribute something useful to the debate? The kite string stuff didn't really have any meaning or depth to it. There are other places where Kennedy is just rude, to Buffy, Willow and the other potentials. I wrote a large scale piece on this, which I might post later (but its like 2500 words long so I'm somewhat reluctant to do so).

“(turns and snaps at Willow) Why are you always standing up for her?” from Get it Done.

Remember this. Highlighted for emphasis. Clearly Kennedy has a problem with Willow supporting her best friend of seven years. A few minor incidents do not excuse the other nasty things Kennedy does.

Kennedy is nasty, that's for sure, but you said:

I don't think that Kennedy was nice to Willow at all.

I didn't exactly say that Kennedy was pleasant in general, but she was supportive of Willow. If she was more supportive than bitchy to Willow in general, that's another topic that I would need to re-watch season 7 for to answer.

But for me Willow was a wreck up until that final spell, and I think that Buffy's confidence and support had more to do with her success than Kennedy did.

I didn't see her as a wreck, but that spell helped a lot. I also have no idea what helped the most, Kennedy's help or Buffy's. I think that without Buffy and Xander's support, Willow might have been depressed for years, so I'm not saying it's all Kennedy, but I definitly think Kennedy made Willow more happy and comfortable with herself sooner than she would have without her.

Oct 20, 2010 17:02:51 GMT -5 -'Goldilocks said:

I like that Kennedy had some courage and she wasnt afraid to stand up for herself but the sarcasm and rudeness was just silly and made the Willow/Kennedy relationship not as believable because I dont think that Willow would go for those personality traits in a potential (see what I did there =]) girlfriend/boyfriend.

I agree. Which is why, eventually, if they do have a "real" living-day-after-day-togheter kind of relationship, they might break up. Unless Kennedy has grown since season 7.

[Randi Giles]

Oct 20, 2010 17:17:47 GMT -5 wenxina said:

Tara was pretty much dull as a rock for the most part, and the fact that she was "sweet", "kind", "understanding", etc kinda reinforces that.

Which is why I was overwhelmed by the love for Tara when I joined Slayalive.

After reading a few I think the only thing that bothered me about Kennedy and Willow relationship is how fast it went. They went on their first sort of date in The Killer in Me and then in the next episode they were like a full blown couple it seemed.

Somebody mentioned in another post how they didn't like Kennedy until her little outburst in Get it Done, which was how I was. That one and the scene in from Touched when thankfully Faith told her to back the hell off. There were some moments I liked with her. One of those moments being when Rona asked, "What's the point?" I believe it was in Showtime and I loved Kennedy response. Now that I think about it I understand the Rona hate. Then again Kennedy was one of the toughest potential, although a little bratty, was the reason I slightly tolerated her.

[wenxina]

Kennedy had a couple of good lines.

Rona: What's the point?
Kennedy: It's this end right here. Just stick that in the bad guys. Any more questions?

7.11 "Showtime"

Rona: Gotta go with the stake. It's classic. I like the feel of wood in my hand.
Kennedy: Lost me there.

7.12 "Potential"

[astranger]

Well, don't most attractions happen out of the blue? Kennedy was always attracted to Willow. And Willow wasn't not interested, she was just thrown off by it. Especially when Kennedy said that she better "not hog the covers", or something to that effect. Willow had never been pursued quite like that before. It was new to her. But it wasn't because she didn't like it, or didn't know that it was happening. And the attraction was reciprocal enough for Buffy to be teasing Willow about bringing tea to Kennedy when she was supposedly sick.

On screen though, the two had no chemistry. There was no energy or warmth to their relationship. What do they have in common? Kennedy even says she's contemptuous of Willow's interests. I don't think they are at the same intellectual level either. There is almost no build up to their relationship either. They have two conversations, that's all.

As for bang-boom, moving on... the same could kinda be said about Tara. Oz was supposed to be her great love at that point, and he just left her. She was heartbroken, and then she moved on... within the same season.

Moving on is part of the healing process. Willow moving onto Kennedy was part of her healing process, just as moving on to Tara was part of her healing from the heartbreak that Oz caused. Up until "TKIM", she was still holding on to the past. That's what triggered her transformation into Warren; the guilt of letting go, just for a second. But quite frankly, that kind of guilt is self-imposed. Her lover was killed. She went off the deep end. S7 was just as much about Willow coming back, literally and figuratively. Her re-developing trust with the Scoobies, her learning to trust herself again, and yes, opening up to a new person.

Oz wasn't killed before Willows own eyes. Nor did Willow go on a rampage and kill 2 people before trying to kill the world. The emotional fallout must have been massively greater. When some people loose a loved one, they Never Recover. As for the 'healing process' I still don't get TKIM. It seems like a wash. What happened? Since when has a kiss been able to dispel magic? The problem isn't resolved, it just goes away. And why can't a friend fill the role? Xander brought her back in S6, why not help her again here? After all, Xander is supposed to fill that role in S7/

And someone said something about not liking the fact that a undeveloped character got together with an established one. For that matter, Tara was equally undeveloped when you first see the romance between the two, which was before "New Moon Rising". And Tara pretty much stayed undeveloped, and was pretty much bland for the rest of S4. She showed some spine in S5, but really only became a character I respected in S6, when she had the strength to walk away from a toxic relationship.

And yet, we still know far more about Tara in S4 than we do about Kennedy. Tara was a witch, she was shy, she's intelligent. She also has a lot on common with Oz, both of them being quiet and thoughtful people. Both are intellectual too. Do not confuse subtlety with shallowness. This links back into the Kennedy issue, she's so alien its hard to imagine them getting along at all.

I get that people were annoyed that she was standing up to Buffy, but Buffy wasn't making a lot of good decisions at many points in S7. And to be honest, a lot of what Kennedy and the rest questioned her on were legitimate points. Yeah, Buffy turned out right, but she went about the whole first attack wrong. She knew nothing about Caleb, and endangered her entire squad by taking the fight to him. Yes, Caleb was guarding the Scythe, but running into battle ill-prepared borders on pretty damn reckless, and just a tad dumb.

Except for the fact that Faith ended up in charge despite not wanting to be. Then Kennedy goes and challenges Faith. There's also her verbal attack on Willow during that same incident. And Faith has a much more important role in that incident than Kennedy does. In fact she only has two lines in that conversation, one of which was to put Faith in charge (against Faith's own wishes), which leads to the aforementioned challenging.

And really, if I had to choose between Kennedy or Tara (that seems to be the dichotomy going on here), I'd go with Kennedy. Tara was pretty much dull as a rock for the most part, and the fact that she was "sweet", "kind", "understanding", etc kinda reinforces that. I guess I prefer my women stronger and more assertive, and less passive or submissive. I don't get why Willow got to be the "Amazon", and Tara merely the woman behind the Amazon. That's not to say I hate Tara. I just don't like her to the degree that others seem to do. But I definitely don't think that Twillow is the gold standard of relationships, or Tara the perfect girlfriend.

Strength isn't about physical strength, or even outright power. Season 6 proved that Tara was in fact the strongest female character on the show. Buffy and Willow, despite their power were actually weak people. And some of the strongest women on the show are Cordelia and Fred, from Angel, who don't really have combat superpowers. You have also ignored the points where Kennedy was rude and downright ungrateful.

The whole thing was just poorly planned and poorly executed.

[jtmaster13]

I think it did move pretty quickly though if you ask me, yes some attractions happen out of the blue, but what I am saying is that Willow clearly did not seem interested at all until "The Killer In Me" and that wasn't even until the end of the episode. That's just how I see it anyway. I mean with Oz and Tara, they didn't push her like Kennedy did, it was a mutual attraction from the beginning. With Kennedy, it was not mutual, at least not how I saw it. It wasn't gradual either, it all happened in one episode in the matter of hours. Maybe it's just me who finds that unusual I don't know.

[Skytteflickan88]

astranger

I disagree with you a lot, and agree about some things, but this two issues I think you need to further explain:

*Did we really get to know Tara more in season 4 than we did Kennedy in season 7?

Tara was a witch= Kennedy was a potential
Tara was was shy and quiet = Kennedy was unafraid and loud
Tara was intelligent = Kennedy grew up rich, is rude, often seems to speak before she thinks, likes to meddle, can fight, has leader potential and a sense of humour.

Kind of seems like we got to know more about Kennedy than Tara in fact.

*How was it proven that Tara was the strongest character on the show? I'm not saying she's not, but after seeing Buffy having to kill her boyfriend and survive being deeply depressed, taking care of her sister and keep fighting evil day after day, I think that from what we saw, she was the strongest one. Maybe Tara was stronger, but it was seen off screen, but not on.

[astranger]

I disagree. We do get to see a few more things about Tara. Remember that she's also insightful, from both Hush and Who are you? She's also very understanding and not very judgmental and is quite understanding of others and has a lot of empathy(from New Moon Rising). She's also quite generous and eager to please (The Crystal from The I in Team).

In addition to this they have far more scenes together before they can be confirmed as a couple.

And by strongest Character I don't think Buffy would qualify. She has proven to be very emotionally fragile, granted in situations that would warrant it. But Buffy has super powers, which she is mostly ungrateful for (most people who meet monsters have two options: die or die horribly) She is easily thrown of by romance. And I'm not talking about Angel, I mean Parker, she mopped about him for four episodes or so. She completely breaks down when Dawn is taken by Glory. And she treats herself with no real respect in season 6.

Tara on the other hand had an abusive family, she also lost her mother, was mind raped by a god and didn't break, looked after Dawn as a surrogate mother, she left the love of her life (who abused her) without compromising her own integrity. And she continues to see Dawn when few others are paying attention. Remember that Tara isn't especially powerful. In the context of Season 6 all the other female characters are running aground, Tara is the only one who maintains her integrity. Dawn's a klepto, Anya turns demon, Willow gets high and Buffy mopes and lets Spike abuse her.

Though, your right in noting that a lot of it is out of focus and off screen. I would have really liked to have know what happened to Tara in the middle of Season 6. But sadly that may never be known.

[Randi Giles]

astranger I have sneak in on this one.

I have to disagree with most of what you said about Buffy in your last post. Not to downgrade everything that Tara's been through that we know of, but from what we've seen Buffy has been through a lot worst and has always manage to bounce back. Tara never really had to deal with the weight of the world on her shoulder like Buffy. Like how many Apocalypse?

Sorry I went off topic.

I'll agree that she was the strongest if were talking emotionally in season 6. Buffy did however just came back from the dead and Willow was a magic fiend and that may bring you down a little.

[iigreenii]

@ astranger I agree with the first part about Tara but I have to go with Buffy when comes to who's the strongest character emotionally. If I were to compare Tara's life with Buffy's, Buffy definitely has it the hardest. Yes Buffy handled some situations like many people would. She's is human, even if she has certain enhanced abilities that others don't. The girl basically has weight of the world on her shoulders and people's lives in her hands. Anyone who can go through everything she's been through and not completely go insane has my vote as the strongest character. Angel is probably the only other character who may have had just as hard or harder. This is just my personal opinion.

[Skytteflickan88]

I guess we can never say who's definitly the strongest for two reasons:

1. We all have unique definitions of the word "strong".
2. Tara & Buffy live different lives and deal with different things and they have very different background. Maybe Buffy would have dealt poorly with having her lover mind rape her, and maybe Tara would have broken after having to kill her lover.

I just know that Buffy from what we see, Buffy seems stronger. But that might just have been because we have seen Buffy live through worse than Tara and seen her survive it, making her stronger, partly because the pain made her stronger and more resistant than someone who hasn't been through it. Just like season 7 Buffy is stronger than season 1 Buffy, because of the experience.

Of course, Tara's childhood is something pretty hard to take out of the equation. She lived through that, and has shown to have a heart of gold. Maybe she would have dealt with Buffy's struggles as a slayer better?

[astranger]

I would like to qualify that I was talking purely from an emotional perspective, not about their ability to take responsibility. If that were the case then yes, Buffy would be the strongest character.

LightYear, I would like to point out that while Buffy does have to save the world, essentially she's the one with the choice. Most other people just have to take it. Like in Anne for example. She easily fought her way out, while others were just slaves. And remember Fred? She lived for 5 years as a slave in a foreign land. Buffy at least had a very loving home for her and Joyce was an excellent mother.

I think though this comes down to opinions on what power, responsibly and opportunity means to us. So we probably won't get a consensus. Perhaps we should compromise and agree that in her own way Tara was a strong character and in her own way Buffy was a strong character?

[iigreenii]

Oct 20, 2010 19:21:48 GMT -5 astranger said:

I think though this comes down to opinions on what power, responsibly and opportunity means to us. So we probably won't get a consensus. Perhaps we should compromise and agree that in her own way Tara was a strong character and in her own way Buffy was a strong character?

So true. I completely agree that both Tara and Buffy are strong in their own way.

[Skytteflickan88]

Oct 20, 2010 19:21:48 GMT -5 astranger said:

I would like to qualify that I was talking purely from an emotional perspective, not about their ability to take responsibility. If that were the case then yes, Buffy would be the strongest character.

I can't seperate the two. Buffy would not have been able to be responsible without having emotional strength.

I think though this comes down to opinions on what power, responsibly and opportunity means to us. So we probably won't get a consensus. Perhaps we should compromise and agree that in her own way Tara was a strong character and in her own way Buffy was a strong character?

Definitly. Impossible to agree completely, since we seem to have different ways of looking at power and strength.

But I agree they're strong in their own way. I can't tell you have people who call them weak characters annoy me.

[midwesternwatcher]

Complex feelings. The suddenness of the coupling didn't bother me. I've been married for a while, but I remember once consummating a relationship less than an hour after I met the young lady. It can happen. And I can picture Willow being vulnerable to a quick conquest, if somebody offered her just the right brand of affirmation in an utterly straightforward, no doubt fear or apologies sort of way, as Kennedy did. I suspect Willow has a hard time imagining how anybody could come on to somebody else without fear.

I agree that for Willow-Kennedy to last into season 8 seems unlikely. I think Kennedy cheating on Willow is more likely than the other way around. There is a book called Dark Congress where it happens, and it seems natural in that context.

If Willow did have another love interest, what would she be like? Who was the potential played by Felicia Day?

What Miss Rogueh says, I partly share that view. I don't think Kennedy was very effective in supporting Willow. Kennedy was too selfish in the relationship, if I read it right. I doubt she thought very much about Willow or her feelings. I suspect Willow was above all a "good catch," a "trophy girlfriend" for Kennedy. But ... Willow does need somebody who's in her corner, committed to her, watching her back.

Here's a thought. Willow might've had a close, meaningful, but non-sexual relationship, perhaps with a man. Apparently she was close to Giles during her stay in England, but that seems to end after they return home, not sure why. I can see some Willow-Giles heart to heart talks, slips and mistakes that Willow makes. There's always Willow-Dawn, and Willow-Xander. Willow-Anya seems less likely. How about a little cabal of the non-slayers, including Spike?

The season does need a Willow story line of some kind.

What if Willow researches the First?

I'm starting to babble. Time to stop.

[wenxina]

Oct 20, 2010 18:11:16 GMT -5 astranger said:

On screen though, the two had no chemistry. There was no energy or warmth to their relationship. What do they have in common? Kennedy even says she's contemptuous of Willow's interests. I don't think they are at the same intellectual level either. There is almost no build up to their relationship either. They have two conversations, that's all.

Chemistry wasn't the point. I was addressing the point that it wasn't out of the blue. We saw it all happening. So your claim that Willow was completely clueless happens to be a rather biased interpretation.

Oct 20, 2010 18:11:16 GMT -5 astranger said:

Oz wasn't killed before Willows own eyes. Nor did Willow go on a rampage and kill 2 people before trying to kill the world. The emotional fallout must have been massively greater. When some people loose a loved one, they Never Recover. As for the 'healing process' I still don't get TKIM. It seems like a wash. What happened? Since when has a kiss been able to dispel magic? The problem isn't resolved, it just goes away. And why can't a friend fill the role? Xander brought her back in S6, why not help her again here? After all, Xander is supposed to fill that role in S7/

So the magnitude of one's love is to be judged by the extremities that they'll go to in? I think we're confusing the magnitude of love and the effect of trauma here. Also, there's the little issue of where Willow's character was at both events. When Oz left her, she wasn't even close to being the witch she was when Tara died. But being vengeful wasn't out of the question. When Willow found out about Veruca, she kinda lost it, and was going to cast a spell that would punish both Veruca and Oz. She couldn't go through with it because she still cared about Oz. With Tara, she wasn't exacting revenge on a loved one. It was Warren, and heck, I wanted to kick his ass.

As for the role that Kennedy filled, yes, a friend could've helped in a way. To be supportive, to be loving, to be accepting of one after one has committed some crazy evil. That's what the Scoobies fulfilled. But the issue of being able to let go of the past, and move on cannot be fulfilled by a friend. Willow was able to open her heart again. That is a beautiful thing. Some people "never recover", but does that mean that's healthy? To forever grieve? It sounds like if Willow found love the next season, then that was fine? Or is this a Kennedy issue? Coz both those things get crossed all the time, which makes discussing the issue not only impossible, but at times infuriating.

Oct 20, 2010 18:11:16 GMT -5 astranger said:

And yet, we still know far more about Tara in S4 than we do about Kennedy. Tara was a witch, she was shy, she's intelligent. She also has a lot on common with Oz, both of them being quiet and thoughtful people. Both are intellectual too. Do not confuse subtlety with shallowness. This links back into the Kennedy issue, she's so alien its hard to imagine them getting along at all.

I think Skytte addressed this pretty well. The breakdown is fair, as far as I can tell. We knew about equal amounts about Tara, Oz, and Kennedy when they got involved with Willow. Yeah, over time, we feel like we knew Tara and Oz more, but that's because they benefited from longer screentime. But as far as what we knew of them at the very beginning (which is a fair standardizing point), I'd say that it was pretty equal across the board.

Oct 20, 2010 18:11:16 GMT -5 astranger said:

Except for the fact that Faith ended up in charge despite not wanting to be. Then Kennedy goes and challenges Faith. There's also her verbal attack on Willow during that same incident. And Faith has a much more important role in that incident than Kennedy does. In fact she only has two lines in that conversation, one of which was to put Faith in charge (against Faith's own wishes), which leads to the aforementioned challenging.

Kennedy challenged Buffy not because she was Buffy. She challenged Buffy because she believed that Buffy was wrong. Same thing with Faith (though, granted, both Faith and Kennedy was wrong, which just proves that two wrongs don't make a right).

And I'm sorry, but I just checked the transcript for the ep, and during the scene where Kennedy challenges Faith, I don't see a verbal attack on Willow at all. I think you're trying really hard to cast Kennedy as a villain, when in reality, she was a brat, but not maliciously so. I wouldn't even go as far as to call her "nasty". She's not intentionally malicious. She speaks her mind, and yeah, there are times when she puts Willow in unfair positions, but that doesn't make her "nasty" or a villain.

Oct 20, 2010 18:11:16 GMT -5 astranger said:

Strength isn't about physical strength, or even outright power. Season 6 proved that Tara was in fact the strongest female character on the show. Buffy and Willow, despite their power were actually weak people. And some of the strongest women on the show are Cordelia and Fred, from Angel, who don't really have combat superpowers. You have also ignored the points where Kennedy was rude and downright ungrateful.

Let's get two things straight. I never equated strength to physical strength. My point was that Tara was a doormat for much of her time on the show. Season 6 didn't prove that Tara was the strongest female character, IMO. She was finally given strength, the strength to walk away from a toxic, and in a way, abusive relationship. But I'd disagree that Buffy was weak. She walked away from Spike when he was the only thing keeping her grounded. She denied herself a world where she could be happy ("Normal Again") and chose the hard route, to choose the Scoobies over normalcy. She chose to live. That's strength. She faltered at the beginning of S6, because of the trauma of being dragged out of heaven. But she came back swinging. I'm not downplaying Tara's strength. I'm just saying that based on "emotional" strength (since that's your angel), Buffy's not weak.

And no, I didn't ignore the bits where Kennedy was rude and ungrateful. I talked about it in relation to the rest of the Scoobies.

Oct 20, 2010 18:11:16 GMT -5 astranger said:

The whole thing was just poorly planned and poorly executed.

Iyari Limon's not the best actress, but I disagree that it was poorly planned. More time spent developing Kennedy would've taken away from the Scoobies screentime, and as it is, one of the main criticisms of S7 is that it deviated too much from the Scoobies. IMO, we learned enough about what we needed to know about Kennedy. Again, we knew about as much about Kennedy as we did about the rest of Willow's partners from the get-go.

[Skytteflickan88]

Oct 20, 2010 20:03:31 GMT -5 midwesternwatcher said:

I agree that for Willow-Kennedy to last into season 8 seems unlikely. I think Kennedy cheating on Willow is more likely than the other way around. There is a book called Dark Congress where it happens, and it seems natural in that context.

Spoiler for season 8:

SPOILER: Click to show

It's implied that Willow's cheating with a snake goddess in season 8. Might be nothing though.

Who was the potential played by Felicia Day?

Vi (called Violet in season 8).