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Post by wenxina on Oct 21, 2010 17:27:54 GMT -5
First things first, no double posting. Seeing as your next post was posted only minutes after this post, you could just edit your earlier post to tack on the addendum. Once again I refer you to some of Tara's research work (on Buffy). And Book smarts are a very poor form of measuring Intelligence in a series. If that were the case most characters would be very dumb indeed. Buffy for example, she shows a great deal of practical intelligence (Helpless springs to mind). But the only real measure of her 'book smarts' are informed. Same with Tara. You made the point that Tara was an intellectual, citing college as evidence. Unlike Tara, Oz's book smarts have previously been textually stated. Tara's is purely conjecture. I understand that book smarts are not the be all and end all of intelligence, but in order to standardize the comparison between Oz and Tara, I had to define the argument. Buffy, if you recall, despite being depicted as a lousy student most of the time scored very well in the SATs, which is pretty much a standardized test of book smarts. The ability to read reference books is not an indication of intelligence. It's an indication of literacy. The issue was never one of acceptance. The issue is comprehension of meaning and consequences. Kennedy was incredibly disrespectful of the power it has and treats it like a toy or a trick. Even later in the series she fails to acknowledge the gravity of using it. She's flippant and makes jokes about what it did to Willow. As you conceded above, Kennedy didn't understand the gravity of magic until she felt first-hand the darkness that it could entail. Her flippant remarks about magic end after "Get It Done". So your omission of her growth here is telling. But we don't see it as viewers. If we don't see it we don't know what's happening. We have no idea what's happening off screen so we can't assume any buildup is taking place. Its just a fan wank. And there is still a lack of gradual build up or growing together for the characters. Two scenes is not a build up. And the Tara thing proves even more that the relationship was forced as Willow goes from traumatized to new date in the space of a single scene and we the audience are for the most part left without an explanation of why. We can argue this until the cows come home, the final word is that Kennedy and Willow have nothing in common, have no growth together at this point and the resolution of Tara's role is sloppy and poorly justified. It's not fanwank because Buffy's ribbing of Willow is textual. Thus, assuming that build-up had occurred is not only fair, it's expected. Willow doesn't go from "traumatized to new date" as you put it. She was apprehensive about starting anything. Then she went with the flow. The fresh trauma was the pang of guilt for letting Tara "die" for just a second, by letting herself be in the moment. You're right that we can argue about this forever, but I disagree that you get to call the "final word" on any situation in a discussion. It may be your final word, but it's not necessarily fact. It doesn't matter. It is irrelevant if the army lives up to it's own ideal or not. The point is, and always has been, that Kennedy treated the position as a power trip using it to abuse someone and then made light of it without any of the training, awareness or professionalism that the job is supposed to need. Now regardless of intent, this is insensitive and shows an extreme lack of fore-though. The army has a distinct advantage (in the west at least) in that recruits these days are all volunteers. The potentials are not, and Kennedy shows no appreciation of that fact. That is the problem. The Potentials are volunteers. They could always opt to be elsewhere. But if they're cowering in Buffy's house for protection, then they're choosing to be there. It may be a hard choice: elsewhere without Slayer protection, or in Buffy's house, in the Potential army, but it's still a choice. Kennedy's treatment of the other Potentials was acceptable given her duties. She was supposed to whip them into shape. No complaining, no whining, and definitely no half-assing. All their lives were on the line, and being scared little girls wasn't helping. As for the irrelevance of what goes on in the military, I'd argue that it is relevant. If the real deal doesn't honor that bit about compassion (and I've yet to see evidence that it's in the drill sergeant handbook), why should Kennedy be expected to honor it (if it exists?). Because of some double standard? And BAH! Got sucked back into this. Moving on now... |
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Post by astranger on Oct 21, 2010 18:30:01 GMT -5
Yeah sorry about that. I got a little excited.
No I said she was intellectual, as in a thinker, not an intellectual. So I wasn't talking about book smarts at all. There are many other characters who could be said to be intelligent without having any book smarts at all. Spike could, debatable be an example, due to his perception and his occasional ability manipulate people (The Yoko Factor).
Your interpenetration of Buffy's line is not one I agree with. Your essentially basing you assumption on a single line. And I disagree completely with any statement of flow. There simply was none. It doesn't change how little chemistry there is between them, or how sudden the change in taste for Willow is.
How are they volunteers? They have been uprooted from their homes and are now forced to fight only because of the threat of death. That is coercion. Remember at at least one point the potentials want to run for it, they clearly don't want to fight. One actually did run for it. That is not choice.
How is it acceptable to mock someone and goat over it? Does getting people into shape require them to be demeaned? Why can't she be motivational without being offensive?
The point I was trying make is that being a Drill Sergeant requires a great deal of skill, understanding, professionalism and a good intuition along with a lot of experience and training. Now the army may not live up to these standards, but are aware of the importance, requirements and responsibility that the job entails.
Kennedy has none of the skills and none of the awareness needed for such an important task. She has no qualifications to be an instructor and her attitude was selfish, arrogant, crude and self aggrandizing.
I guess that this argument is going to go around in circles and I don't think there is more to be said. So lets change the topic from these incidents to another incident. How do you judge Kennedy in this exchange? (From Get it Done):
KENNEDY
(to Willow) You're gonna let her talk to you like that? Willow, she's not even the most powerful one in this room. With you here, she's not close.
I'm curious to see what you think of this?
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Post by wenxina on Oct 21, 2010 19:14:15 GMT -5
No I said she was intellectual, as in a thinker, not an intellectual. So I wasn't talking about book smarts at all. There are many other characters who could be said to be intelligent without having any book smarts at all. Spike could, debatable be an example, due to his perception and his occasional ability manipulate people (The Yoko Factor). Splitting hairs here... and may I remind you that steering this conversation towards book smarts was partly your fault, with your presentation of Tara being a university student as proof of her intelligence. Tara being a thinker is an assumption. She's never been shown to indulge in philosophical thought. Look, I'm not trying to debase her character, but I'm also not going to build up a character to something she's never been textually been shown to be. Tara's strengths were her kindness, understanding, compassion, and loyalty. My only problem with her is that by being all those things with not much of a spine (except for standing up to Glory - big kudos, and for walking away from an abusive relationship - as she should), Tara's pretty much the closest we get to a Mary Sue character in the Buffyverse. Your interpenetration of Buffy's line is not one I agree with. Your essentially basing you assumption on a single line. And I disagree completely with any statement of flow. There simply was none. It doesn't change how little chemistry there is between them, or how sudden the change in taste for Willow is. I think my point is that I'm not presenting interpretation, and therefore am the more objective voice in this debate. The transcript of the scene below (edited for the irrelevant bit about Spike's chip) BUFFY You'd think. (Willow pours hot water into a cup) That for the other patient? WILLOW Yeah. Thought I'd bring her some tea, help her feel better. BUFFY Mm-hmm? WILLOW It's just tea. [...] BUFFY Have fun...delivering tea... WILLOW (stops, turns around) OK, not when you make it sound all dirty like that. (mumbles as she heads upstairs) It's just tea. I think the lines speak for themselves. I have even removed the notes on tone. How are they volunteers? They have been uprooted from their homes and are now forced to fight only because of the threat of death. That is coercion. Remember at at least one point the potentials want to run for it, they clearly don't want to fight. One actually did run for it. That is not choice. Exactly, one ran for it. She chose to book it. And Chloe chose to end her life, in essence running for it too. The Potentials had a choice. As I said in my previous post, they were caught between a rock and a hard place, but it was still a choice. Those that chose to hang about had to learn how to defend themselves. No one coerced them into anything. Destiny dealt them a crappy hand, but it was their choice to stay in Sunnydale. Why can't she be motivational without being offensive? Good question. Would Buffy like to answer that one? The point I was trying make is that being a Drill Sergeant requires a great deal of skill, understanding, professionalism and a good intuition along with a lot of experience and training. Now the army may not live up to these standards, but are aware of the importance, requirements and responsibility that the job entails. Kennedy has none of the skills and none of the awareness needed for such an important task. She has no qualifications to be an instructor and her attitude was selfish, arrogant, crude and self aggrandizing. I understood your point. I just don't know where you're getting that from, since it sounds like a personal take. Which also brings me to question how you know that they are "aware" of the skills you claim they do. Kennedy was the most qualified Potential of the lot. Buffy had to work another job, and handed that responsibility to Kennedy in her absence. As one of the most experienced Potentials, she was already highly trained in combat and weapons. I guess that this argument is going to go around in circles and I don't think there is more to be said. So lets change the topic from these incidents to another incident. How do you judge Kennedy in this exchange? (From Get it Done): KENNEDY (to Willow) You're gonna let her talk to you like that? Willow, she's not even the most powerful one in this room. With you here, she's not close. I'm curious to see what you think of this? Funny thing is, I don't particularly side with either Buffy or Kennedy in this scene. I empathize with both sides because I don't see either side as being particularly right or wrong. Both sides could have conducted themselves better. I understand that Buffy's tired, but her speech was pretty much a "I'm better than you" one, as I'd previously stated. It was offensive to not only Kennedy, but Anya, and to an extent, Xander and Willow too. And I'm sure, if we took a poll, most of the people in the room felt attacked too. Kennedy's outburst taken in context of the scene is justifiable. She and the Potentials have been working hard, and she's also defensive of Willow, who Buffy's implicitly attacking as well. Earlier in the ep, she confesses to Wood that she wished that Willow would actually do something, calling her a "Wicca who won't-a", and wishing that he would make Willow "crabby". Kennedy is the one standing up for the rest of the room at this point. In a certain way, she's taken over Tara's role, when Tara defended Willow's reluctance to do magic in "Older and Far Away". In both instances, Willow was reluctant to do magic, either because she was quitting cold turkey, or because she was afraid of the loss of control. Kennedy's comment about "power" is relevant, because Buffy was throwing the "power" card about. You pointed out that Buffy was Willow's best friend of seven years. Well, Buffy was attacking Willow. Kennedy was merely pointing out that fact. Why should Willow allow herself to be talked to in such demeaning terms? If it's because of power, Willow has more than Buffy does. Buffy's response is that she "uses" her power, which is a legitimate claim. As I said, I don't see bad guys in this scene. It's a tense scene, as it should be. A comrade just killed herself, the general is lashing out because she's burnt out, and everyone else in the room is taking the lashing. |
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Oct 21, 2010 20:55:57 GMT -5
I'm a little surprised about how this thread is going. I figured we'd all pretty much agree that the choice to introduce Kennedy as a love-interest for Willow wasn't such a good idea. I'm looking for suggestions as to what might've been better, though.
One thing that I missed in S7 was Giles-Willow interaction. They should've bonded pretty deeply during that Summer between S6 and S7, but we don't see much sign of it. And what about that "extremely powerful coven" that intervened in S6? Maybe Willow would come back in the care of one of them members. Here's an idea, just thought of it. Maybe Willow went through training in how to handle magic. Maybe we could see her talking with Giles or some other guru about how she's doing, she could have occasional crises or doubts.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 21, 2010 21:00:14 GMT -5
Wasn't the coven from season 6 the same as in season 7? That Willow talked to at least once back in Sunnydale?
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Oct 21, 2010 21:32:02 GMT -5
Good Drill Sergeants are highly trained intuitive professionals. There is a reason for this Kennedy has no right to do this as she hasn't got the training. Actually, Wood would have been a much better choice. This statement bothers me a bit. I'm an Army veteran, I've known many drill instructors, and I respect them for what they do. But "highly trained intuitive professionals"? That's the party line. I wish it were true, but I don't think it is. The DI's I knew were all so much alike, as viewed by the trainees, that I can only figure they were all playing the same shtick, just as they'd been trained to do, given the Army obsession with uniformity. The Army would love to assess the performance of their DI's in an objective way, but they don't, and they can't. The Army (and the other branches of service) have a tremendous vested interest in supporting the authority of their DI's. If a trainee doesn't respond well to being called a maggot, it will turn out to be her fault, and the DI will be blameless. Trust me on that! Now, what about Kennedy? She picked up the DI shtick as best she could, and she played the role with gusto. To expect more of her would've been unrealistic. And now I'm going to sound like I'm the one spouting the party line, but I don't think it's fair to blame Kennedy for what Chloe did to herself. Nor do I think there was necessarily anything wrong with Chloe. NEW THOUGHT this is a change of subject sort of ... what if Kennedy was attracted to Willow, but Willow failed to respond? What would Kennedy have done? Would she have been broken-hearted? It's hard for me to picture Kennedy with a broken heart. I think she'd play the tough guy. If there were a problem like that, who would handle it? Giles, Xander, Willow? I really don't know. Oh, wenxina said he liked Kennedy's line about handling wood and "you lost me." Curious about that. The latest episode of Upside Down and Halfway to Happyland features an interview with Rachel, who happens to be of the lesbian persuasion, and who hates that line. She thinks it's too in-your-face, as if to say, "I'm a lesbian and don't you ever forget it." She says there are people who are gay, and then there are gay people, people who seem to have nothing to show the world except their orientation. |
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Post by wenxina on Oct 21, 2010 23:03:46 GMT -5
Oh, wenxina said he liked Kennedy's line about handling wood and "you lost me." Curious about that. What can I say... I enjoy a good pun.  |
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Post by astranger on Oct 21, 2010 23:25:13 GMT -5
I was mentioning a factor, just one of the top of my head. I never claimed it was the only factor.
I didn't get that vibe though. Maybe it was in the way the line was delivered, but I thought that Buffy was teasing about something else.
I don't think this is fair. Choices made under the threat of death are not really choices at all. They are clearly unwilling fighters, and are terrified out of their minds.
It looks as though we are starting to go around in circles.
PS: Interesting take on that line.
I know its really more of the ideal than a reality. I was just trying to convey that it was a job that requires a lot of care and responsibility. Especially as I would have thought that someone with more experience should take the role. Giles is actually supposed to train slayers so why not him? Too old perhaps. What about Wood? Perhaps.
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Josh
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 265
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Post by Josh on Oct 22, 2010 8:25:27 GMT -5
See? Kennedy causes heated discussions/arguments between fans. She's evil.  |
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Post by wenxina on Oct 22, 2010 8:33:09 GMT -5
Spike causes heated discussions/arguments between fans...
Heck, Dawn causes heated discussions between fans. This fandom is all sorts of wacky.
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Josh
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 265
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Post by Josh on Oct 22, 2010 8:37:32 GMT -5
Spike causes heated discussions/arguments between fans... Heck, Dawn causes heated discussions between fans. This fandom is all sorts of wacky. Well in my defense on that Spike actually was evil for the longest time. And Dawn's not only a teenager, but she's one that had the ability to destroy the world...Not completely on the up and up. I feel my theory's been supported  |
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Post by wenxina on Oct 22, 2010 8:40:19 GMT -5
Spike causes even more heated discussions, post-evil, IMO. That kinda debunks the theory. As for Dawn, it was usually more along the lines of "I can't stand her!" then it was about "Crap, she's the Key?!" I think you'll need to properly define your theory for it to even pass scrutiny. |
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Post by abuffyfan on Oct 22, 2010 9:54:13 GMT -5
I'm not a particularly big Willow/Tara fan (I liked her better with Oz), but it always disturbed me that she moved on so quickly after Tara's death. Tara was supposed to be her great love, but she was already hooking up with Kennedy before Tara was cold in her grave. I think less than a year is way too soon to move on with a new romantic partner.
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cm9
Innocent Bystander
Posts: 4
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Post by cm9 on Oct 22, 2010 15:06:22 GMT -5
I think that Willow is just one of those character types that are more defined by the people around her, and she has trouble being alone.
As a character by herself, there wasn't an incredible amount to her IMO. As evidenced by this thread. I've rarely seen threads about Willow HERSELF. It's always Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Willow/Kennedy.
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Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 22, 2010 15:11:53 GMT -5
I disagree. Her addiction to magic and power makes for a lot of talk as well, and that's all about her.
I always thought she was layered. I am very biased though, since I identify with her a lot (specially when I was bullied and shy).
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Jaz ♀♀
Junior Vampire Slayer
Kisses & Gay Love
'Hey Lezallbefriendsbians!'[Mo0:30]
Posts: 941
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Post by Jaz ♀♀ on Oct 22, 2010 15:27:57 GMT -5
I think that Willow is just one of those character types that are more defined by the people around her, and she has trouble being alone. As a character by herself, there wasn't an incredible amount to her IMO. As evidenced by this thread. I've rarely seen threads about Willow HERSELF. It's always Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara, Willow/Kennedy. Whoa, I have to disagree with you on that. I've read in numerous threads on here that focus/discuss/appreciate just Willow. You should look more in other areas of this site instead of supporting your statement solely on this thread. Which BTW is about Kennedy, and so of course Willow's relationship with her is going to be apart of the topic because that's a big part of Kennedy's storyline (which ultimately will and has taken a turn to view and debate Willow's other relationships in contrast of Willow/Kennedy) Its part of the thread. |
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Post by afterthebattle on Oct 23, 2010 5:09:30 GMT -5
I've always thought that Fred would've been a great love interest for Willow in s7. Weird, I know.
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Post by astranger on Oct 23, 2010 5:41:02 GMT -5
Actually that could work. Fred is nice, friendly and caring enough not to be too much of a shock over Tara, yet her bubbly, friendly and enthusiastic persona are different enough to be interesting.
Aside from the fact that Fred is straight of course.
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Jaz ♀♀
Junior Vampire Slayer
Kisses & Gay Love
'Hey Lezallbefriendsbians!'[Mo0:30]
Posts: 941
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Post by Jaz ♀♀ on Oct 23, 2010 5:51:42 GMT -5
^^ which is why i love fan-fiction. lol
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Post by midwesternwatcher on Oct 23, 2010 6:35:43 GMT -5
Willow did give Fred the eye in Orpheus, remember? "I'm seeing someone," she says to herself. I wonder if Fred got that?
The best alternative to Kennedy, I think, is probably a non-romantic story line. Here's a thought. Since we hear magic has consequences, what about the spell that created Dawn? Were there unexpected, unintended consequences to that? Willow could help Dawn find out, something for both of them to do. It might play into the main story line too.
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Once again I refer you to some of Tara's research work (on Buffy). And Book smarts are a very poor form of measuring Intelligence in a series. If that were the case most characters would be very dumb indeed. Buffy for example, she shows a great deal of practical intelligence (Helpless springs to mind). But the only real measure of her 'book smarts' are informed. Same with Tara.
