|
|
Post by midwesternwatcher on Oct 20, 2010 21:23:24 GMT -5
I did read that Willow one-shot, I didn't follow it very well I must admit, but I didn't get the feeling it was a sexual thing. Girl-girl sex is one thing, girl-snake sex ... actually ... take that back, just pretend I didn't write that.
Vi, that's right. Vi wasn't developed much as a character, but at first blush, she has a lot more of the Tara thing than Kennedy ever did.
This thread turned out OK, I guess people enjoy it. Yea me!
|
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Oct 20, 2010 21:25:29 GMT -5
The implied affair is not so much in the Willow one-shot as it is in S8 #10 ("Anywhere But Here").
|
|
|
|
Post by astranger on Oct 20, 2010 22:26:19 GMT -5
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. The two characters interact with each other twice onscreen before TKIM. That is rapid, and there is no chemistry between the characters to smooth this over. You might think I'm being biased, but I'm really being subjective, like everyone else here, including you. You might not think 2 interactions is a short time, but others do, and without that vital chemistry its difficult to make sense of.
My point was that the two incidents are not comparable. The fallout and psychological damage were very different in implication and magnitude. Therefore we cannot say that Willow got over Oz in X time, therefore Willow should get over Tara in X time.
I think this comes down to how we value friends. See I disagree that friends cannot help one move on, I think they can. Obviously we ascribe different levels of importance to friendship and romance. As for the relationship v Kennedy's personality, I think that this comes down to a mix of both. Kennedy's personality is a poor match for Willow, coupled with the minimal buildup and I must also note that the crowded events of the season didn't help.
But the point I was making is that Kennedy doesn't challenge Buffy. It's Faith that starts the incident off. Kennedy does chip in later and does call for a leadership change. And then in criticizing Faith we see something. Why would she object to her own choice? Its not so much about the decision being good or bad, its just that she seemed not to really... well I don't know what Kennedy was expecting.
That's because the incident is when Faith challenges Buffy. And before this she tried to goad Willow into taking over herself. That looks bad, especially combined with her later challenge to Faith. Think about it, what is her game? Kennedy is shown verbally abusing potentials, remembering that only a few episodes earlier she shirked her duty to hook up with Willow. Apparently training is only for people who aren't on the pull. I wouldn't say she's a villain, but she does seem like a nasty person.
|
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Oct 20, 2010 23:37:10 GMT -5
Perhaps I did not make myself clear. The two characters interact with each other twice onscreen before TKIM. That is rapid, and there is no chemistry between the characters to smooth this over. You might think I'm being biased, but I'm really being subjective, like everyone else here, including you. You might not think 2 interactions is a short time, but others do, and without that vital chemistry its difficult to make sense of. Chemistry is subjective. From an objective POV, we saw Kennedy's interest in Willow, we saw Kennedy hit on Willow, and we saw Willow being flustered. And then we see Buffy ribbing Willow about being into Kennedy. Chemistry is irrelevant here as the sequence of events leading up to that scene in "TKIM" are laid out quite clearly. And since I have no real vested interest in the Willow/Tara/Kennedy love triangle, I view myself as pretty objective on this particular matter. As I've previously stated, I'm not a big Kennedy fan, neither do I care much for Tara. My point was that the two incidents are not comparable. The fallout and psychological damage were very different in implication and magnitude. Therefore we cannot say that Willow got over Oz in X time, therefore Willow should get over Tara in X time. I think I touched on that in my previous post. I'm not saying that because Willow got over Oz within a semester, she should get over Kennedy over a summer. However, I also don't see why she shouldn't, if it happened. And evidently, she's not completely over Tara, even after "TKIM". We see in "Anywhere But Here" that Willow harbors some self-assigned guilt for Tara's death. Again, it sounds awfully biased for you to come out saying that because of the circumstances, Willow should grieve for Tara longer than she did for Oz. Again, I'll repeat from my previous post that Willow going off the deep end in S6 was a product of Willow's character arc in S6. She had developed an addiction to magic, and the end of S6 was basically a bad relapse episode. Your point was that the emotional fallout from Tara's death must have been greater than Oz's leaving, because of the magnitude of Willow's actions. That's an impossible point to make because as I pointed out, in both instances, Willow sought vengeance through magical means. S6 was a lot more drastic because it was a bad relapse episode, and because she was a heck of a lot more powerful at that point. I think this comes down to how we value friends. See I disagree that friends cannot help one move on, I think they can. Obviously we ascribe different levels of importance to friendship and romance. As for the relationship v Kennedy's personality, I think that this comes down to a mix of both. Kennedy's personality is a poor match for Willow, coupled with the minimal buildup and I must also note that the crowded events of the season didn't help. Why is it necessarily a poor match? Because Kennedy is different from the one other woman that Willow's been with? More pointedly, because Kennedy isn't Tara? Tara wasn't anything like Oz, other than the fact that she loved Willow. That's the single unifying element for all Willow's lovers. They all loved her. But Oz was an intelligent (well, he tested well), taciturn, but ultimately popular guy who played in a band that landed semi-frequent gigs at the most popular hangout in Sunnydale. Tara was a stuttering wallflower, and a witch. Tara's intelligence is inferred. There are no actual references to her intelligence. Her magical aptitude is formidable, with the way she was able to sense that Buffy wasn't behind the wheel in "Who Are You?". Kennedy, as far as we know was a rich brat (self-admitted, which again goes back to how she's brutally honest, even about her own flaws), who had been trained since she was at least eight (the age she had mastered the crossbow), who knew she was gay since she wanted to sweep Scarlet O'Hara off her feet. Point is, they were all very different people, and Willow fell in love with them all. So how do you decide who's a good match? But the point I was making is that Kennedy doesn't challenge Buffy. It's Faith that starts the incident off. Kennedy does chip in later and does call for a leadership change. And then in criticizing Faith we see something. Why would she object to her own choice? Its not so much about the decision being good or bad, its just that she seemed not to really... well I don't know what Kennedy was expecting. I'm rereading your previous post, and if that was your point, you were more than a little unclear. This is what you said: Except for the fact that Faith ended up in charge despite not wanting to be. Then Kennedy goes and challenges Faith. There's also her verbal attack on Willow during that same incident. And Faith has a much more important role in that incident than Kennedy does. In fact she only has two lines in that conversation, one of which was to put Faith in charge (against Faith's own wishes), which leads to the aforementioned challenging. It sounds like you were saying that Kennedy resented Faith's authority, which she did. And as I was saying, Kennedy doesn't care who's on top... she's pushy and wants her say. As soon as Faith became "in-charge chick", she shut down discussion and assumed the leader role. She basically became Buffy, giving orders. Kennedy wasn't objecting to her "choice"; she was objecting to the fact that Faith wasn't any better (in her eyes, given that Faith kept "shutting [her] down"). That's because the incident is when Faith challenges Buffy. And before this she tried to goad Willow into taking over herself. That looks bad, especially combined with her later challenge to Faith. Think about it, what is her game? Kennedy is shown verbally abusing potentials, remembering that only a few episodes earlier she shirked her duty to hook up with Willow. Apparently training is only for people who aren't on the pull. I wouldn't say she's a villain, but she does seem like a nasty person. In your previous post, you (inadvertently?) blended both scenes in your argument. Unless we're not seeing eye to eye on which bit Kennedy challenged Faith. The only time I'd consider Kennedy challenging Faith was in the basement, when they were talking strategy. Kennedy wanted to do some recon at the Seal, whereas Faith wanted to capture a Bringer for info. And what you saw as goading, I saw as a statement of what Kennedy saw as the truth. And she's not wrong. In terms of raw power, Willow is more powerful than Buffy. I'm not saying that it wasn't disrespectful or just plain rude. It was all that and tactless and brash. But Buffy coming down on everyone was also pretty tactless. I understand why she said what she did, and I'm completely sympathetic to her position at that point in time. The First was wearing her down, both physically (fighting ubervamps and digging graves) and mentally (being forced to protect the Slayer line almost single-handedly). Ultimately, it does come out sounding like a "I'm better than you" speech, as Anya pointed out. And at the end of "Get It Done", it seems that Buffy understands that, and is apologetic of the fact. As for rebuking Potentials, Kennedy was the assigned drill sergeant. She wasn't den mother of the girl scouts. She wasn't rebuked for her treatment of the girls by the person who put her in charge (i.e. Buffy) because that was what she was supposed to do: whip the girls into shape. Chloe had pretty much been scared of the whole Slayer deal since her first appearance in "Showtime". She wasn't prepared to be a Slayer, or a Potential, really. Kennedy skipped out of the vision quest thing, not training. And although I'll concede that that was naughty of her, I also don't think it would've mattered much if she had gone anyway. Kennedy, unlike most of the other Potentials had been raised as a Potential. She had already drank the Kool-Aid, so to speak. |
|
|
|
Post by astranger on Oct 21, 2010 0:46:40 GMT -5
Of course it is. But everything in this debate must be subjective. Even your own statements. For example you have said that everything was laid out. I disagree, to me it wasn't. Clearly you see one thing, others see anther. Even your choice of words shows this. You used the word 'Flusters', but I would have said it as 'frustrated', at least a first. For me there was no build up, no chemistry between the characters and they are not a good match at all. Yes it is subjective, just like all the other statements on this thread.
I must disagree with this. Oz and Tara did in fact have multiple similar traits that make them reasonably comparable, gender and orientation aside. Both are intelligent and compassionate people with a highly intellectual side (Tara is a Uni Student after all). Both are deeply sensitive to the needs of others and neither are rude, imposing or otherwise domineering and were ultimately reserved people. We already know Willow's type, as established by the show, and (in my opinion) nothing was done to show that her tastes in personality had changed.
Your right here. My argument was fragmented and I apologize for any confusion that it caused. The incidents are separate. The first one is where Buffy is cast out of the house. In that argument Kennedy snaps at Willow and wants Faith in charge. The next one is the basement in the next episode she challenges Faith.
That doesn't excuse her behaviour. Drill Sergeants are highly trained and intuitive individuals (ideally) they don't actually abuse recruits or enjoy humiliating them. If something is wrong a good Drill Sergeant would spot it and offer help. Chloe may have been scared and frightened, but wouldn't it be much better to build up her confidence and show some compassion for her have been a better option?
I also think the Vision quest was important, if for no other reason than psychological preparation.
Clearly we are seeing the events differently along with Kennedy's personality and intentions. For me one of the worst things about her is that she never shows another side of her personality. There are dozens of times when she could have been more sensitive to Willow or others. In addition to this she seems very ungrateful. I'm going to make a much bigger post explaining it tomorrow, when my responses won't be quite so scattered and broken up. So if you read it I hope it will clear a few things up for you.
And I apologies again if anything here is poorly laid out or confusing to read.
|
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Oct 21, 2010 1:30:14 GMT -5
Interpretation is subjective. Stating the events that occurred in order to establish a precedent or pattern is as objective as an opinion can be. Merely because it's stating something from the text. Please point out when Willow was frustrated at being hit on. The only irritation expressed early on, if I recall correctly was when Kennedy kept objecting to the sleeping arrangements. This was before the "hog the covers" comment (i.e. before Kennedy hit on her). After which, Willow was lost for words. Hence, flustered. That's a pretty neutral statement.
Being a university student means absolutely nothing to me in terms of intelligence. I TA-ed a course for a year, and some of my students were absolutely stupid. And this being at the University of Texas at Austin, which is (according to Wikipedia) ranked #45 nationally, and #13 among public universities in the US. Tara may very well be intelligent, but being in college doesn't necessitate it at all.
And we don't know if Kennedy is intelligent, either. Never came up. But as for sensitivity, she's not always brash... she's been shown to be sensitive to Willow's needs and insecurities multiple times. And while she seems ungrateful, as I pointed out earlier, she's also quick to admit that she was wrong. And as far as ungrateful goes, perhaps that tag should be fairly distributed amongst everyone in the house?
And while I don't agree with your character trait analysis, let's just say for a moment that you're right. That Oz and Tara are similar. So they become a "type". Is adhering to a particular type of partner necessarily a good thing? Should you turn down someone who may be good for you just because they aren't necessarily what you're used to? Attraction is wacky, it doesn't have to make sense. Unsouled Spike falling for Buffy being a rather tongue in cheek example of the wacky.
As for the drill sergeant bit, I'm not well-acquainted with the military beyond movies, TV shows, and some documentaries. They usually bark orders. I looked up "drill instructor/sergeant" on Wiki (easiest way to find basic info) and apparently they have the duty of "indoctrinating new recruits entering the military into the customs and practices of military life". Which as far as I know means following orders and living a highly regimented and disciplined life. Still not seeing how Kennedy's actions deviate from this. Chloe may have wanted compassion, but I don't know if that's what she needed. I've seen arguments pinning the blame of Chloe's death on the "maggot" comment, which I find erroneous. It wasn't Kennedy who talked Chloe into offing herself. It was the First. Sure, Chloe may have had a bad day, was probably doubting if she'd make it the next day. The First swoops in, tells her about the horrible death ahead of her, perhaps tells her a few horrifying Slayer-death stories, etc. Chloe kills herself. The First brings up the "maggot" issue because it hits home with Kennedy. Whether or not she had anything to do with the death, that little niggly possibility would eat at her. It's a human response... for some reason, we tend to feel responsible for a lot of things that are beyond our control.
The purpose of the vision quest was hazy at best anyway. With Buffy, she's already the Slayer, and it made sense. For the Potentials, I don't quite see the reason for the walkabout... sure, they could learn about the origins of the power they may have, but that's stuff that Giles could have told them. And Kennedy was already psychologically prepared, which was my point as to why it may have been redundant anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by astranger on Oct 21, 2010 4:10:31 GMT -5
Maybe I have heard the word used differently to you, which is why we have a problem. To me flustered is a description, but it implied a certain amount of discomfort. Note that I also believe that Willow shows irritation to Kennedy on several other occasions most notably in the early parts of TKIM and the parts when Willow is going to meet the coven later. At this point Willow seems to be barely tolerating Kennedy.
It might be that I suspect that Tara got a scholarship, since I don't think she had any real money or family backing. But since I don't know how the US School System really works I guess this is just a fanwank (so ignore it if it makes no sense). However there are other signs of Tara's intelligence. Her magic use being the most prominent. However there are more indications, such as being generally perceptive of others. Note that she recognizes Willows problems ages before anyone else. In addition to this she proves herself to be a capable researcher when she 'studies' Buffy after her resurrection.
True, and I'm not saying Kennedy is dumb either. But the point is never elaborated on. And I agree that there are moments when Kennedy isn't being brash. But for me she never reflects or shows anything deeper. There are several times where a line could have been changed or something to show another thread to her. And she does admit she was wrong, but never in a way that shows she's grown or really learned something. Part of this though, to be fair, might be because the season is so crowded.
No, I agree that characters can change their tastes. My problem is that we weren't really shown a decent transition period. The two characters have all of two sentences together before TKIM as I am fond of saying. And for me at least, there was no real build up to it. It seemed forced, so as a result the relationship feels off. I'm not saying that Willows tastes can't change, but it should be handled in a way that flows and feels organic in the context of the story. I will admit though that this is a very subjective viewpoint, but Willow was given no time to adapt to Kennedy and they had no time to grow on each other.
Well I'd just like to note here that I don't blame Kennedy to Chloe's death. That would be unfair. But she was being very rude and unfair for her to mock someone in that way for what is essentially a joke. I believe that Kennedy had basically the same view of a Drill Sergeant as you do without realizing that a Drill Sergeant is also responsible for his/her soldiers mental health. Kennedy basically treated the position as a game without being aware of the consequences. Of course this doesn't make her a killer, but it does show that Kennedy is mostly unperceptive and thoughtless. She was handed (or took) a position that required incredible amounts of responsibility and she didn't seem to respect that.
Kennedy might have been prepared. But then why didn't she just say so? Why did she have to get out of it by fraud? Like you I too am unsure of what the vision quest really means, but that isn't really the issue. The issue is that Kennedy's first resort (at least that we see) is deception. That doesn't sit too well with me and its also why I'm confused by people calling Kennedy honest. Her first and really only episode is based on deception and by extension her relationship with Willow (though, this is reaching somewhat). In the wider context of the season it doesn't sit well with me, because aside from the dream quests usefulness or lack of, her lack of responsibility in this situation makes me wonder about Kennedy in other situations.
Now this is highly subjective so feel free to disagree. A lot of what Kennedy does has, for me at least, a disturbing subtext to it. The sad part is that this could have been something more if she got more screen time or some time to reflect or the like. That's really her story for me. Almost. Almost compassionate, almost noble, almost. In the end, for me, Kennedy fails to cross the line and ends up as just what she says she is. A brat.
|
|
cm9
Innocent Bystander
Posts: 4
|
Post by cm9 on Oct 21, 2010 5:37:00 GMT -5
Hi, this is my first post here!
Ok, I've been holding off posting in this thread, because I've been looking for concrete evidence of something either Joss or Alyson or maybe both said at different times.
Back in the day, I swear I read that the reason for Kennedy (aggrivating attitude and all) was that they originally wanted Willow to hook up with Faith, but Eliza wasn't available to come back early enough in the season to develop that. Kennedy's attitude reminded me of a mix of early Faith and early Buffy, but season 7 had a bunch of...stuff going on, with random storylines all bunched together IMO, so who knows.
|
|
AngelFaith
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
I rolled the bones. You for me.
My forgottendreamer[Mo0:12]
Posts: 641
|
Post by AngelFaith on Oct 21, 2010 6:26:13 GMT -5
I've read through this entire thread, and seen a lot of heated debating, but I think I'm just going to list the reasons why I don't like (actually, that's mild, I HATE is a more accurate description) the Willow/Kennedy pairing.
1. First and foremost I really think that they moved Willow on way too quickly after Tara's death, especially given the magnitude of her grief. I once (when I had way too much time on my hands) sat down and figured out exactly how long it was from Tara's death and Willow and Kennedy getting together and I'm pretty sure it was only seven/eight months. It just seems way too soon, especially given how brutal Tara's death was and how long she and Willow had been together.
I felt that the writers moving Willow on was disrespectful to Tara's character. They just didn't seem to want to deal with the fallout of killing a main characters' partner and unwilling to really explore the grieving process. Instead they gave us mad-with-grief Dark Willow for three episodes and ONE episode where she feels guilty for moving on. I would have really liked to see the writers have Willow slowly deal with her grief properly.
2. I HATE KENNEDY! I'm sorry to all Kennedy fans out there, but I really, really cannot stand that girl. She's arrogant, rude, disrespectful and bratty. I hate her complete lack of respect for anyone, I hate the way she automatically assumed the role of leader amongst the Potentials and I hate, HATE her treatment of other people. Calling Chloe a maggot? Just plain mean. Yelling at Willow about standing up for her best friend. Really kinda gross. And the way she shows almost no respect for magic and what it could really do to Willow really irks me.
3. I personally never saw any chemistry between her and Willow. Any time they kissed I cringed. I just felt that they had no connection, nothing that seemed to bond them.
Willow and Oz were connected, Willow and Tara even more so, but with Kennedy it just felt empty and shallow and very forced.
Wow, that was a long rant. I'm done for now.
|
|
Randi Giles
Wise-cracking Sidekick
I Want to Believe
Moon Eyes in disguise.[Mo0:34]
Posts: 2,616
|
Post by Randi Giles on Oct 21, 2010 7:41:32 GMT -5
Hi, this is my first post here! Ok, I've been holding off posting in this thread, because I've been looking for concrete evidence of something either Joss or Alyson or maybe both said at different times. Back in the day, I swear I read that the reason for Kennedy (aggrivating attitude and all) was that they originally wanted Willow to hook up with Faith, but Eliza wasn't available to come back early enough in the season to develop that. Kennedy's attitude reminded me of a mix of early Faith and early Buffy, but season 7 had a bunch of...stuff going on, with random storylines all bunched together IMO, so who knows. First I'll say welcome to the board or congratulations on your first post! As far as the rumor goes this is one I never heard. I can believe that they wanted Kennedy to have a little attitude like Faith, but there is no way I can believe they would have hooked up Willow with Faith. Even if they did I already know it would have been a WTF moment. Where is this evidence if you don't mind me asking? |
|
|
|
Post by wenxina on Oct 21, 2010 7:58:10 GMT -5
Maybe I have heard the word used differently to you, which is why we have a problem. To me flustered is a description, but it implied a certain amount of discomfort. Note that I also believe that Willow shows irritation to Kennedy on several other occasions most notably in the early parts of TKIM and the parts when Willow is going to meet the coven later. At this point Willow seems to be barely tolerating Kennedy. I think we're using the word "flustered" the same way then, since I never denied that Willow was uncomfortable. She was lost for words, as I said. I'll admit, Willow was annoyed that Kennedy lied to her about some mission, but she stayed anyway, and was charmed enough to kiss her. And while you saw two lines between them, I saw an evening. May not have heard the entire conversation, but given the lines we heard, I get the general idea of how the evening went. It might be that I suspect that Tara got a scholarship, since I don't think she had any real money or family backing. But since I don't know how the US School System really works I guess this is just a fanwank (so ignore it if it makes no sense). However there are other signs of Tara's intelligence. Her magic use being the most prominent. However there are more indications, such as being generally perceptive of others. Note that she recognizes Willows problems ages before anyone else. In addition to this she proves herself to be a capable researcher when she 'studies' Buffy after her resurrection. Many kids in the US take out loans to go to school too. I've never denied Tara's aptitude for magic, which I clearly stated before. All the things you listed as signs of her intelligence either fall under magical aptitude, or sensitivity. Again, not saying she's not smart, just saying that her intelligence (or, more specifically, her book smarts, to standardize the term "intelligence") never came up. True, and I'm not saying Kennedy is dumb either. But the point is never elaborated on. And I agree that there are moments when Kennedy isn't being brash. But for me she never reflects or shows anything deeper. There are several times where a line could have been changed or something to show another thread to her. And she does admit she was wrong, but never in a way that shows she's grown or really learned something. Part of this though, to be fair, might be because the season is so crowded. Actually, she does grow significantly with the acceptance of magic as significant to Willow; she understood that magic was important to Willow, and even though she was ignorant of it, she accepted it. No, I agree that characters can change their tastes. My problem is that we weren't really shown a decent transition period. The two characters have all of two sentences together before TKIM as I am fond of saying. And for me at least, there was no real build up to it. It seemed forced, so as a result the relationship feels off. I'm not saying that Willows tastes can't change, but it should be handled in a way that flows and feels organic in the context of the story. I will admit though that this is a very subjective viewpoint, but Willow was given no time to adapt to Kennedy and they had no time to grow on each other. And I'm saying that textually, there was build-up, or hinted build-up. Enough offscreen build-up must have occurred for Buffy to be teasing Willow about bringing Kennedy a mug of tea. Meaning that Willow had at least shown some signs of attraction. This before getting to know Kennedy better. So yeah, it was a physical attraction, mostly. But we also know that Willow was still holding on to Tara at that point. She says so herself. And it's not like she threw herself into Kennedy's arms; she was sleeping on the floor, because she knew she was being pursued. What you're saying is that Kennedy didn't have time to win you and other fans over. It's a separate matter from Kennedy not having time to win Willow over. I believe that Kennedy had basically the same view of a Drill Sergeant as you do without realizing that a Drill Sergeant is also responsible for his/her soldiers mental health. Kennedy basically treated the position as a game without being aware of the consequences. Of course this doesn't make her a killer, but it does show that Kennedy is mostly unperceptive and thoughtless. She was handed (or took) a position that required incredible amounts of responsibility and she didn't seem to respect that. And yet, the military does exactly what Kennedy does, is all I'm saying. That compassion byline may be in the handbooks somewhere, but I doubt it's actually put in practice much, since the whole "indoctrination" into the military deal involves breaking down the individual, to form a unit. No I in team, and all that. And seriously, "maggot" is so stereotypical that it actually makes me laugh. So I generally go with Buffy's assessment of Chloe: idiot. Oh well... I think I've said what I wanted to on the matter. Even now, there's beginning to be some redundancy in my posts. Gonna bow out now. Thanks for the lively debate... never thought I'd post this much about Kennedy of all people.  |
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 21, 2010 8:12:09 GMT -5
Back in the day, I swear I read that the reason for Kennedy (aggrivating attitude and all) was that they originally wanted Willow to hook up with Faith, but Eliza wasn't available to come back early enough in the season to develop that. Kennedy's attitude reminded me of a mix of early Faith and early Buffy, but season 7 had a bunch of...stuff going on, with random storylines all bunched together IMO, so who knows. Oh. My. God. That's a juicy rumour/idea. Almost as good as the one I heard about Joss considering making Xander gay instead of Willow and having him hook up with Spike. But a Willow & Faith relationship would have been awesome too! |
|
Josh
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 265
|
Post by Josh on Oct 21, 2010 9:07:25 GMT -5
Back in the day, I swear I read that the reason for Kennedy (aggrivating attitude and all) was that they originally wanted Willow to hook up with Faith, but Eliza wasn't available to come back early enough in the season to develop that. Kennedy's attitude reminded me of a mix of early Faith and early Buffy, but season 7 had a bunch of...stuff going on, with random storylines all bunched together IMO, so who knows. Oh. My. God. That's a juicy rumour/idea. Almost as good as the one I heard about Joss considering making Xander gay instead of Willow and having him hook up with Spike. But a Willow & Faith relationship would have been awesome too! Neither of those pairings make sense IMO  Too bad we couldn't have just gotten Fred on Buffy for Willow  The chemistry those two showed in Orpheus alone was infinitely greater than what Willow and Kennedy ever showed...hell I'd even go as far to say even more chemistry than Oz and Tara. |
|
cm9
Innocent Bystander
Posts: 4
|
Post by cm9 on Oct 21, 2010 12:27:23 GMT -5
I'm gonna try to elaborate from memory, so I apologize up front for rambling:
Eliza was at a ComicCon (possibly Philly) and an audience member said something to Eliza in the vain of: Alyson said in an interview that of all the scrapped storylines out there, the one she was most disappointed in that didn't play out was Willow and Faith were supposed to hook up in Season 7, but Eliza was shooting a movie, so she only had a little chunk of time to come back later in the season.
To which Eliza said she'd heard that because the only way she was going to come back was if she had something fun to do (turned out the be the fling with Wood) and she jokingly said it was being considered because Alyson used to hit on her all the time backstage, and she was flattered that Alyson had a thing for her but always turned her down.
Now, I know Eliza was half joking in the answer, but I don't know what the audience member was quoting Alyson from (possibly FHM where she said she wanted to have a roll in the sack with Eliza?), but it was elaborated.
I didn't mean to go off topic. Sorry.
|
|
|
|
Post by buffyfan21 on Oct 21, 2010 13:17:48 GMT -5
The whole Kennedy/Willow relationship came out of nowhere though, that's what cracks me up. I mean if you look at the beginning when Kennedy first came in, you could tell Kennedy was obviously into Willow. However, Willow did not seem interested in Kennedy at all. She wasn't even on the radar! How in one episode they are together is so mind boggling to me. It wasn't gradual like any of Willow's past relationships, it was just bang/boom they're dating. That's what I'm saying. It's like their relationship was forced. I have tried very hard on my rewatches to like Kennedy, but so far that hasn't happened. Maybe someday it will, though I don't even like her in S8...But I suppose if there was one good thing I could say about her, at least she didn't mope and whine like the other potentials. lol. |
|
Josh
Novice Witch
[Mo0:0]
Posts: 265
|
Post by Josh on Oct 21, 2010 13:21:22 GMT -5
The whole Kennedy/Willow relationship came out of nowhere though, that's what cracks me up. I mean if you look at the beginning when Kennedy first came in, you could tell Kennedy was obviously into Willow. However, Willow did not seem interested in Kennedy at all. She wasn't even on the radar! How in one episode they are together is so mind boggling to me. It wasn't gradual like any of Willow's past relationships, it was just bang/boom they're dating. That's what I'm saying. It's like their relationship was forced. I have tried very hard on my rewatches to like Kennedy, but so far that hasn't happened. Maybe someday it will, though I don't even like her in S8...But I suppose if there was one good thing I could say about her, at least she didn't mope and whine like the other potentials. lol. But what's worse, inexperienced people who are scared and moping/whining or an inexperienced person being bossy and trying to control people who have fought more apocalypses than you could count on one hand?  |
|
|
|
Post by buffyfan21 on Oct 21, 2010 13:47:31 GMT -5
That's what I'm saying. It's like their relationship was forced. I have tried very hard on my rewatches to like Kennedy, but so far that hasn't happened. Maybe someday it will, though I don't even like her in S8...But I suppose if there was one good thing I could say about her, at least she didn't mope and whine like the other potentials. lol. But what's worse, inexperienced people who are scared and moping/whining or an inexperienced person being bossy and trying to control people who have fought more apocalypses than you could count on one hand? Haha. I'm afraid you've got me there, Josh. |
|
|
|
Post by Skytteflickan88 on Oct 21, 2010 16:10:11 GMT -5
Oh. My. God. That's a juicy rumour/idea. Almost as good as the one I heard about Joss considering making Xander gay instead of Willow and having him hook up with Spike. But a Willow & Faith relationship would have been awesome too! Neither of those pairings make sense IMO I don't know, Joss has done a lot of think believeable that at first I thought was silly. He introduced Dawn and Spuffy just fine, even though I was very chocked and appaled at first, so I think those pairings could have been worked out too, maybe even been made brilliant. Lots of fanfic writers have turned the Spike & Xander bickering into sexual tension that worked great. I imagine it would have made perfect sense on the show. |
|
|
|
Post by astranger on Oct 21, 2010 16:11:45 GMT -5
Once again I refer you to some of Tara's research work (on Buffy). And Book smarts are a very poor form of measuring Intelligence in a series. If that were the case most characters would be very dumb indeed. Buffy for example, she shows a great deal of practical intelligence (Helpless springs to mind). But the only real measure of her 'book smarts' are informed. Same with Tara.
The issue was never one of acceptance. The issue is comprehension of meaning and consequences. Kennedy was incredibly disrespectful of the power it has and treats it like a toy or a trick. Even later in the series she fails to acknowledge the gravity of using it. She's flippant and makes jokes about what it did to Willow.
But we don't see it as viewers. If we don't see it we don't know what's happening. We have no idea what's happening off screen so we can't assume any buildup is taking place. Its just a fan wank. And there is still a lack of gradual build up or growing together for the characters. Two scenes is not a build up. And the Tara thing proves even more that the relationship was forced as Willow goes from traumatized to new date in the space of a single scene and we the audience are for the most part left without an explanation of why. We can argue this until the cows come home, the final word is that Kennedy and Willow have nothing in common, have no growth together at this point and the resolution of Tara's role is sloppy and poorly justified.
It doesn't matter. It is irrelevant if the army lives up to it's own ideal or not. The point is, and always has been, that Kennedy treated the position as a power trip using it to abuse someone and then made light of it without any of the training, awareness or professionalism that the job is supposed to need. Now regardless of intent, this is insensitive and shows an extreme lack of fore-though. The army has a distinct advantage (in the west at least) in that recruits these days are all volunteers. The potentials are not, and Kennedy shows no appreciation of that fact. That is the problem.
|
|
|
|
Post by astranger on Oct 21, 2010 16:18:07 GMT -5
Sorry to double Post but I have prepared a more comprehensive statement about Kennedy's behaviour. I apologies if this is a little long, and about the double posting (again) but I hope that a built up platform will highlight a few issues.
An Explanation: Why I hate Kennedy and her relationship with Willow
Personally, I believe that Kennedy was one of the worst characters to appear on Buffy. I will proceed to examine her words and actions in the episodes that she appears and explain why she rubs me the wrong way.
Part One: Episodes
Kennedy does not get of to a good start. Her firsts words are “This is the Slayer?”. Maybe the delivery is more to blame than the line itself. But Kennedy starts of basically sizing up Buffy. Now I get the other stuff, with the potentials being annoyed, tired, frightened and out of their comfort zone. But why does Kennedy do this to her host?
Then in Show Time Willow and Kennedy have their first real conversation, where Kennedy makes light of Willows interests. Now I must admit Kennedy does have fight to her. But then she goes and spoils it by making light of Willow’s spell as Dark Willow.
In Potential Kennedy also doesn’t have much of an important role, just a lot of banter. Though this is shared by most of the other potentials so its not a reason to be critical. However this episode doesn’t go anywhere in general and that is disappointing.
The Killer in Me is a very disappoint episode for Kennedy. She starts of with deception, rather than going on a vision quest. Granted the quest was probably unnecessary, but as I’ve noted before the choice to resort to deception seems somewhat…unnerving. The two character then learn that they have noting in common. Yet Kennedy still pursues a reluctant Willow. When Willow turns into Warren (and they are headed to the coven) Kennedy mocks her. Now this was the prefect opportunity for Kennedy to reveal a softer side, but she doesn’t. Her later stand against Amy is supposed to be brave. But to me at least it falls flat, perhaps because Amy could easily win any fight and simply chooses not to.
In First Date Kennedy also doesn’t have any important lines. She has some but none that build her character in any real way. A lot like Potential in that respect.
Get it Done is also a bad episode for Kennedy. She’s become a Drill Sergeant and verbally abuses Chloe. While I doubt that this has deliberate malice behind it, it does show that Kennedy has no real understanding of what was required of her or the power she had. She treated her position as a game and seemed to think that abusing young girls, many of whom are frightened and out of their depth, for a quick joke. Now she does show shock when Chloe dies, but she never reflects on it or learns from it. She then goes and tries to goad Willow into taking over:
KENNEDY
(to Willow) You're gonna let her talk to you like that? Willow, she's not even the most powerful one in this room. With you here, she's not close.
From her best friend of seven years and despite the fact that Willow is clearly not emotionally stable enough to take over. I don’t know how to justify this. And again later she shows almost no comprehension of how dangerous magic is commenting that:
KENNEDY
Why not just try all 32 flavors. Worst thing that happens is you go brunette.
Once again despite being aware that Willow has a serious magic problem. For comparison, Dawn and Anya are actually helpful in this situation. Kennedy only realises magic is dangerous when she herself is harmed by it.
Kennedy also has next to no role in Storyteller, just a handful of lines.
Kennedy also has a minimal role in Lies my Parents Told Me.
While Kennedy has a combat role (and not an impressive one) Kennedy doesn’t have a major speaking role in Dirty Girls either.
Kennedy isn’t to bad at the start of Empty Places, even apologising for a crass remark. She then snaps at Willow:
KENNEDY
(turns and snaps at Willow) Why are you always standing up for her?
The key word in there is always. It implies that the two come into conflict over this often. Once again I would like to point out that Willow and Buffy have been best friends for seven years. She then decides that having Faith in charge would be best for the group. But even Faith doesn’t really want the job.
Early in Touched she’s no better. After starting the initiative to get Faith in place as leader she the proceeds to challenge her too. Now some will say its good to be outspoken. But is it? Imagine being Faith. Your as confused and unsure of yourself as the rest, but you have more responsibility. Now imagine that someone is second guessing your every move and every decision you make. Faith says it best:
FAITH
Things are different, because now... (stands) I'm your boss. Look, you guys, I'm not Buffy. I'm not the one who's been on your asses all this time, but I'm not one of you anymore, either. I'm your leader, which means I go first, and I make the rules, and the rest of you follow after me. Is that clear? So, Kennedy, (points) back the hell off, and let me do my job, all right? (calmly) OK, let's get down to business.
The sex scene is just…ugh. The lead up sounds pretty, but it doesn’t really contain any real substance behind those words.
End of Days may actually be the only real clear positive episode start for Kennedy. To her credit she does rally the potentials after the disaster and quite well. Sadly she doesn’t do anything else of significance for the rest of the episode.
And now for Chosen. Once again we have Willow and Kennedy interactions. This might be the only time Kennedy is ever sensitive to Willow. But somehow this still seems to be undercut by the sensation that Kennedy isn’t taking the conversation seriously. Then again Willow isn’t either, but by now for me, the damage has been done.
While Kennedy does have quite a few lines most of them don't really mean much. Of course this would always be the case due to the way the season is set out. But the end result is that we get a dose of the superficial attitude and no opportunity to explore character depth.
Kennedy: A personality overview
So what are Kennedy’s personality traits? She’s brash, competitive, up front, outspoken and aggressive. Is this a good thing? Its worth noting that Kennedy’s traits are problematic to say the least. While she is brave and willing to fight and those are good things, her aggression makes things very difficult for Buffy and later Faith. This brashness also blows back on Willow at one point. Her competitiveness also seems to be directed against her allies, especially the other potentials most of whom are just trying to survive. In addition to this she initially seemed very ungrateful to Buffy, despite the strain that the situation would have on her too. Which leads to my next point.
Those were the ‘official’ and ‘positive’ traits of Kennedy. But on a closer examination there are some very unpleasant traits that Kennedy has. First of all she seems to lack any real awareness of the feelings of others until the season is mostly over. She also seems to enjoy making light of other people problems. She does this to Chloe with terrible results and just as shockingly to Willow a few episodes earlier. There is a far seedier side to Kennedy, like when Kennedy challenges Willow to take over Buffy’s role. I’m not sure what to make of this incident, but it seems to be very immoral. Add to this Kennedy’s occasional lying and lack or responsibility and we could have had an interesting character. The problem of course is that most of these negative traits are accidental and as a result are not developed.
The ultimate question is this: Are bratty and in your face characters good? I’m not so sure. If such a character has a softer side then often that interesting mix can go down very well. But if the character doesn’t have a softer side or some depth to them they can become very annoying very quickly. Kennedy’s soft side is very rarely seen and never elaborated on. As a result Kennedy never really grew beyond the ‘Brat’ stage essentially leaving her without the intrigue necessary to make her compelling.
Kenlow: Why it shouldn’t work
First of all I would like to qualify that peoples tastes can change. So I’m not arguing against that possibility. But from what we see on the screen there is no clear way for this change to develop. From Kennedy’s first conversation with Willow it was obvious that the two were going to get together. Now, creating a character to be nothing but a love interest? Alright Tara was essentially that, but the development from friends to lovers was gentle enough that it wasn’t too rough. Tara also had the decency to have several traits that Oz, and even Xander had helping to ease the transition. It didn’t help that Season 7 was a very crowded time on Buffy. With lacklustre support plots, a villain that couldn’t actually do anything I found Season 7 to be very stuffy indeed.
As for the actual ‘transition’ Willow and Kennedy only had two onscreen conversations before the Killer in Me. As of TKIM it is evident that Willow is still hung up on Tara but the issue is never really resolved. It just goes away. So there is no transition period. Despite the aforementioned obviousness there is no build up and as a result their relationship feels forced. The characters are not given time before their relationship starts to grow on each other and people knew.
The final word is that Kennedy is an aggressive and annoying character who lacks depth, pushed into a relationship without any build up or pacing despite the clash of personalities and people noticed. That is all.
|
|
