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Post by wenxina on May 7, 2009 8:20:14 GMT -5
I was much more distracted by her human arse.  It's currently on Gossip Girl. Albeit, clothed. But still fetching. |
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Nicholas
Descendant of a Toaster Oven
One Good Scare
Tonight I'm Dancing.[Mo0:16]
Posts: 656
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Post by Nicholas on May 7, 2009 13:06:40 GMT -5
This is true. She looks better on Gossip Girl than she did on Buffy.
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Post by wenxina on May 7, 2009 13:50:31 GMT -5
She's had time to grow up since Buffy. |
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jellymoff
Ensouled Vampire
Claimer of Funn[Mo0:0]
Posts: 1,174
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Post by jellymoff on May 7, 2009 14:39:49 GMT -5
BTW-How much am I loving the new Georgina; some of Michelle's best work IMO.
But now to the topic at hand....
Loved this issue. It was the first issue in a long time that really knocked my socks off. Doug Petrie is not only a good TV writer but a good comic writer; I think some of the other TV writers don't adapt to the medium as well. His "Ring of Fire" is one of the best stories in the old Buffy comics run.
Anyone read that letter with that dude begging for more Xander? I think we do need more Xander in our lives; I hope he get to deal with all his issues and we get to see a little more development from him.
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Post by tms on May 7, 2009 14:51:55 GMT -5
I liked it. In my opinion, it's not as good as everyone says, but I still liked it. A few things are bothering me, though:
1- part of the story seemed rushed.
2- how did Dawn end up with Gepetto?
I liked that Dawn and Buffy finally had their sister moment, which was long overdue - though it was impossible to do when she was being transformed every now and then.
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Post by Wyndam on May 7, 2009 14:52:54 GMT -5
Been busy so I haven't posted my thoughts, but this issue was fantastic. Definitely the best issue in the arc and one of the better issues overall this season. Petrie's script was just great. He captured every character well and provided us with some great moments that really needed to happen with this particular subject (Xander/Buffy chat and Buffy/Dawn chat). How awesome was the back and forth between Buffy and Xander? The "I love you." from Buffy was especially great.  Like Emmie pointed out, I thought the fact that Dawn just HAPPENED to turn into a doll and there just so HAPPENED to be a Geppetto-esque guy living in a shack that also HAPPENED to collect doll's was a little much, but the story was so good and that was really my only gripe about the issue. Georges really came back with a vengeance, as his art was fantastic. The close ups on Buffy (loved her outfit in the second half) were perfect. Kenny also turned out to be a pretty cool guy, and I am glad he and Dawn reconnected in the end. I'm not surprised that Dawn's first love interest really was a demon, and his design looked fantastic. Also, I loved Andrew's dialogue. I still chuckle when I think about that scene. |
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Post by Rebecca on May 7, 2009 18:16:59 GMT -5
Loved this issue. Just got it actually, haven't had time to write anything, which I probably won't because everybody and their brother already has written books to this 40-page comic issue.
One thing I will say is I totally squealed when Buffy said "I love you" to Xander.
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Post by wenxina on May 7, 2009 19:45:42 GMT -5
The letter from the guy at the back who went on a Xander tirade... it annoys me.
To claim that Xander had been abandoned for the most part in the last 4 seasons is ludicrous and amazingly myopic.
But to the point at hand. Xander hasn't been ignored. Xander's arc has always been less ostentatious, which is fitting, since of the original Scoobies, Xander was always the one that represented the house of normalcy. Case in point, S6. While Buffy was struggling with being ripped out of heaven and living literally on the Hellmouth again, and Willow was tumbling with magic addiction, Xander's story was more mundane, but probably the most relatable of the three: cold feet at the altar with a healthy dose of fear of the future, and plenty of self-loathing after the fact.
To address the claim that Xander was ignored starting S4, Xander is the only one of the three teen Scoobies who doesn't enroll in college. It's an exploration of avenues other than college; what are the options for a less-than-stellar student who doesn't feel that more school is right for him? Willow fits right into collegiate Mecca, whilst Buffy, being a not so school-ish type finds herself in a strange new world. Her transition is less smooth than Willow's, but she eventually finds her groove. But what about Xander? He's aimless, feeling increasingly inferior about his social standing (i.e. being a townie), and he lives in his parents' basement, and pays them rent. But what does he learn at the end of S4? That one's inferiority stems from one's self, and that his friends love him, regardless of whether he peddles ice-cream to kids, or is trying to play Good Will Hunting. The season even goes as far as establishing him as the "heart" of the union spell that ultimately helps save the day.
Moving on. S5. "Butt monkey". Is that really that offensive? Is it really that wrong to play a guy in less than heroic light? Nevermind that, let me counter the claim that Xander was humiliated by saying that all the Scoobies were caught in Dracula's thrall. Buffy allowed the fiend to SUCK on her. Really... is it really that humiliating to act like a moron and eat bugs, or is it worse to be the Slayer and display such weakness in the knees? On top of that, I know plenty of lesbians who may have been offended by Willow acting all moony over Dracula. Call it comedic timing, but I'm not sure if any of the others could have played butt monkey quite as well as Nick Brendon anyway. Aside from that rather inauspicious start, S5 is essentially the season that Xander goes from being the man-boy to a full-fledged young man. He actually has a rather steady paying job. His performance at work must be pretty impressive to warrant a promotion. He moves out of his parents' place into his own rather posh digs. He moves in with Anya... a pretty big step if you ask me. And, he proposes. Yeah, the timing was off... but apocalypse on the way, probably seemed as good a time as any. It's the start of his Watcher career as Xander begins to see things that others choose to ignore. He confronts Buffy about the way she treated Riley (not coming down hard on Buffy here... plenty of blame to go around in that 'ship), and is the person who essentially tells Buffy that it's okay to be alone for a bit. He's the one who's closest to Dawn in terms of what it feels like to be a teenager again, probably because he hasn't caught a whiff of that superiority complex that inevitably comes from attending college. All fine and dandy... Xander's established as the unsung hero of the Summers' women and all that.
But then comes S6, where everything goes to hell. He shows doubt about being ready for marriage... probably wonders if the impulsive action was catalyzed by the impending apocalypse back then. Xander may have been good at seeing things, but he kinda turned his focus away from himself. In a moment of sheer terror, he leaves Anya at the altar. Everyone fell that season, Xander's was just less remarkable. But even at his lowest, he still saves the day. Not with any typical badassery that seems to be requisite to be cool these days (i.e. blasting guns, crazy fighting skills, etc) but rather by being able to tell the truth, and therefore cement the underlying theme of the season: redemption is possible with love. Xander is once more the heart of the Scooby triumvirate. I call that a rather significant moment, no?
S7. Of the Scoobies... Xander's the most successful, despite being the only one to not pursue a higher education (probably a deliberate F.U. to those who think that there's only one way to be successful). He's still the one who "sees things"... leading to the rather ironical loss of an eye. But still, he comes around, and rallies behind Buffy. It may be noteworthy that Xander's the only one of the Scoobies who has never been given an actual epiphany moment about why he fights the good fight. Buffy has a sacred destiny, which she came to embrace. Willow chooses right before college... an active choice to continue the fight instead of just leaving it behind, foreshadowing the end of the era of "high school as Hell", and moving the fight to the Big Leagues. But Xander, he's always known his place: right beside and behind his friends. That old cliche about how behind every successful man there's a great woman? Consider Xander the greatest inversion of a trope in the Buffyverse.
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vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
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Post by vampmogs on May 7, 2009 19:58:21 GMT -5
This line immediately reminded me of the fact that Buffy has, in fact, loved Dawn to death... her own death. And the subsequent lines: "It won't come to that."
"Not today."Put me in mind of the season 5 crisis, when Buffy had to be ready to kill her own sister, if necessary, to stop Glory, but loved her so much (despite knowing she wasn't really her natural sister) that she gave her own life instead. Great point! Lets hope this means that if Buffy was faced with the same option again she "wouldn't let her die" like she said in 'LMPTM'... Gah!!! Worst. Episode. Ever  Wexina,I do think Xander has been ignored from season five onwards. I wouldn't say that people are imagining it because Nicky already said how Joss told him after 'The Replacement' that was the end of Xander's story. And you can pretty much see that throughout the last three seasons of the show where his character was never integral to the plot like Buffy, Willow, Spike or even Dawn (s5) was. He never got the big arc, and his screen time and importance in an episode was greatly reduced as those seasons progressed. By the time season seven rolled around Xander got nearly nothing, when his eye got poked out it was to service Buffy’s story rather than his which is pretty inexcusable, he didn’t feature in ‘COWD’ which is a terrible shame, episodes like ‘LMPTM’ he got one line ect. Even SMG said she believed the final should have had more Xander as well, I think he got fairly gypped with that also I think Xander’s “butt-monkeyness” in ‘Buffy VS Dracula’ was far more extreme than any other character as well. It’s not that he was under the thrall (as you say so was Buffy and Willow) it was that when he was, it was one big joke, and he wasn’t treat seriously. ‘Wolves At The Gate’ kind of recognised that by going to the root of the butt-monkey and finally rectifying it once and for all. Xander got the dignity back Drac stole from him. I don’t agree that Xander’s been ignored in season eight though, so I think the person in the back of the comic was wrong about that. He’s had some great stuff this season and I think his character has been treat fine. I’ve talked about this to death so I don’t want to get drawn out into a huge discussion about it, because Xander fans could risk getting a reputation for being a whiny lot if we keep at it all the time. However, I do think it was a real problem and I just wanted to share why. |
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Post by wenxina on May 7, 2009 20:22:08 GMT -5
I stand by my opinion that Xander hasn't been as neglected as some would like to think. As I said, Xander is more of a behind the scenes kinda guy. His arc unfolds through others. And hey, the one huge thing that happened to Xander is almost universally reviled. |
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Post by Rebecca on May 7, 2009 20:25:22 GMT -5
I think the context of the rant needs to be taken. It was submitted before the end of WatG. Even with the concessions vampmogs made, by that point in S8, we really hadn't seen any development for Xander and it was looking like it was reverting back to S5.
It was that last scene in WatG that gave Xander some development, not the mud they dragged his character though as Dracula's "manservant". The dude had a point, the "Antique" story was just disgusting from a character development standpoint.
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Post by wenxina on May 7, 2009 20:28:52 GMT -5
The dude had a point, the "Antique" story was just disgusting from a character development standpoint. The "Antique" story was just a crappy addition to the volume. I hated that it was part of a canonical anthology, and even more so when "WatG" referenced it. |
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Post by Rebecca on May 7, 2009 20:38:25 GMT -5
fo' realz, yo
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vampmogs
Novice Witch
[Mo0:16]
Posts: 208
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Post by vampmogs on May 7, 2009 22:20:21 GMT -5
Agreed. Admittedly Whedon and Goddard took the easy way out by having Andrew explain it.. Because we don’t have to believe in what Andrew says. Xander and Drac clearly weren’t friends, unless you want to call mind rape “friendly” and Xander wanted nothing to do with him. I also really doubt Xander stayed a year with Drac like ‘Antique’ says. Buffy wouldn’t have taken that long to rescue him and it doesn’t feel appropriate that Xander had been part of the organisation for only 6 months (if we go by Joss’ comments that this season took place a year and a half after season seven) because he’s too well-established in the organisation.
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Paul
Ensouled Vampire
[Mo0:34]
Posts: 1,173
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2009 10:29:50 GMT -5
The dude had a point, the "Antique" story was just disgusting from a character development standpoint. The "Antique" story was just a crappy addition to the volume. I hated that it was part of a canonical anthology, and even more so when "WatG" referenced it. I love "Antique", I find it really funny and don't get why the fans hate on it so much. Xander is Dracula's manservant... so? He's under a spell, people, do you find "Him" disgusting for portraying the girls under a spell? As for being bad character development... it's not character development for Xander, it's development for Dracula, to show how low he's sunk in his midlife crisis. Xander was just a funny plot device to get Buffy there. Also, why do people think Buffy would have rescued him straight away? Do they have to be attached at the hip? The way I see it is... Xander took time off from the Scoobies to mourn Anya, got kidnapped by Dracula, and Buffy didn't find out he was missing until months later. Maybe that requires a bit of fanwank on my part but it's not impossible to believe... in "The Long Way Home", Xander and Buffy haven't heard from Willow in like a year. Another thing that bugged me was when people complained about "WatG" making "Antique" canon when it was already canon to begin with. The Tales books are so shunned. |
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Post by AndrewCrossett on May 8, 2009 11:21:11 GMT -5
I love "Antique", I find it really funny and don't get why the fans hate on it so much. I like "Antique" too. It's a comedy... and unusually broad comedy, in fact... but I find it funny. The scene where Dracula is trying to scare the Slayers by turning into various things is hilarious, as is Slayer Kira when she's stoned on Drac's charm spell. (The art there is particularly funny). I like what Goddard did to expand the Dracula character in this and WatG. The Tales books are so shunned. And they shouldn't be... they have some great stories. "Righteous"... "The Trouble With Vampires"... "Sonnenblume"... "Presumption"... "Stacy"... "Taking Care of Business"... all great stuff. |
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Post by Rebecca on May 8, 2009 11:32:56 GMT -5
I just don't like the entire Dracula/Xander-Manservant dealie. It's not cool in my book. It was fine blah-blah-blah when he was kinda goofy back before "The Replacement" when he got some good character development, and in my mind, he grew past that "weak mind" phase. Sure it could be reasoned that he was mourning Anya and became susceptible to Drac's power, but I really just don't like Xander in that position.
Though now thinking back on it... I can see it fitting into the story. All the scoobies "fell" again after Chosen, like in S6. At least it seems like that to me at the moment, lol. Xander mourning Anya became Drac's buttmonkey, Willow killed her girlfriend for a little while and had some fun-naked-time with Saga Vasuki, Buffy built her Slayer Army on (albeit not all) illegitimate funding, and Dawn cheated on her boyfriend (whom I believe she really loved) and got a multi-transformation spell cast upon her. They all came in this season with a lot of baggage weighing them down. Also, it seems Joss is writing Dawn into the scoobie role.
Now they're beginning to (slowly) find redemption. Xander first finding strength to stand up to Drac, now Dawn apologizing to Kenny and finding forgiveness. I think it's quite obvious both Buffy and Willow have issues to be straightened out still (Buffy and Dawn moving toward a healthy relationship is a big plus for both), but it's quite possible we haven't seen the last of Xander's and Dawn's stories.
I look forward to delving into Willow's story, which has only been teased about so far, IMO. We know tid bits, but the big picture is still illusive. Can't wait!
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Post by wenxina on May 8, 2009 11:33:19 GMT -5
Another thing that bugged me was when people complained about "WatG" making "Antique" canon when it was already canon to begin with. The Tales books are so shunned. Didn't say that "WatG" made it canon. I know that the Tales anthology was already canon. I lamented that fact (that "Antique" was canon in the first place). And that "WatG" even went so far as to reference it. It's not the buttmonkey thing that bugs me... it's just... the writing just stank for me. It was cheesy, and kinda mediocre. I get that it was supposed to be about Dracula's degradation... but I don't care. I never really gave a crap about Dracula... he made for a rather poor entry into S5, other than echoing dream-Tara's message from "Restless". And the art... yech. Both Tales anthologies are largely hit-or-miss for me. There are some good chunks here and there, but in general, I enjoyed the connecting story with Giles' grandma more than most of Vampires and I think that the only two stories in Slayer that actually hit the spot for me were the opening and closing acts. The rest were quite humdrum, IMO. |
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Post by skippcomet on May 8, 2009 14:39:13 GMT -5
I haven't got my copy of #25 yet....but all the discussion about a letter about Xander, makes it sound like a letter I sent to Dark Horse about Xander at roughly the same time as #13 came out. If the letter writer was named "Rob"....well, it was probably me.
So, all I'll say is, I vehemently disagree with everything wenxina has said. Then again, Xander is head and shoulders my favorite character, and I'm tired of the "normal" characters getting shoved into the background simply because they're normal. Frankly, I think it's long overdue for a season in which Willow is utterly irrelevent, if not outright used only for comic relief.
I think "buttmonkey" IS that offensive when it's the only thing done with a character for an entire season or more, and that "being shown in less than a heroic light" IS offensive when it's being done for the majority of a season and the writers are bragging in interviews that they're having a ball humiliating a certain character, and have no plans to do anything else. (David Fury, I condemn you to the special hell.) Season Four had no revelations about self-worth for Xander, that only happened in Season Five, and it only happened after the writers had gotten a season's worth of complaints about the use of Xander in Season Four.
I don't want Xander "beside and behind his friends," I want him "beside" them, period. If merely reversing gender tropes is enough to count as feminism, then to hell with Joss.
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Post by wenxina on May 8, 2009 16:30:56 GMT -5
There is a special place in hell for those who condemn others... I heard that it's next to the section for people who talk in theaters... Wonder if anyone caught the Firefly reference... EDIT: I'm wondering how Xander-philes will feel if  is indeed revealed to be Xander in some form... You asked for front and center... the writers give you the status of the Big Bad... yeah... probably won't fly too well. Kinda makes me wish for that, even if I'm not placing bets on Twilight's identity. Yes... there's a special hell for those who wish for impish things too... I've got a French chateau and a Spanish villa in the works. EDIT2: I already made an argument for how S4 provided a sense of self-worth in Xander. Make a supported argument, if you so choose. |
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